T.H.E. Show Newport: June 2 - June 5, 2016

Discussion in 'The Meeting Place' started by Out Of Your Head, May 20, 2016.

  1. Wfojas

    Wfojas Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    848
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    CA
    Whoa, I have the same problems. I stuff straws on the port to tune my speakers, or give up and swap amps, lol. I do look forward to reading your impressions at home, should be a great read.
     
  2. ohhgourami

    ohhgourami Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    597
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    SGV, CA
    @Audio Zenith They used a DSP for the Legacy V speakers?! Did you get a chance to hear the Sanders?

    The Schiit room sounded quite good. Would make a great "budget" setup.
     
  3. Audio Zenith

    Audio Zenith Custom Title KGB

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    349
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Yes Gaurav, seeing you is always a great pleasure :bow:.

    @ohhgourami, they used Legacy/Trinoff branded DSP and proudly talked about corrections in the time domain but unfortunately system sounded as if they picked wrong time zone ;-).

    I wanted to listen to Sanders but as always they could only play music from their own flash card. I mentioned to mr.Sanders a few years back that not allowing attendees to play their own music may hurt company's image but nothing has changed. I understand his electrostats are beamy and back wave has to be tamed but wrapping those panels in a few extra layers of foam which may be later used for room treatment could be a great way out if they can't spend much on room treatments each show. This time Steve, supposedly their dealer, offered to demo this same set-up at his own place somewhere in LA and who knows maybe we can make it happen one day.

    Side note why not being able to play own music could be a bad thing; some dealer in the biggest ballroom demoed a set of Magico S7. There was at least 50 listening chairs and maybe couple of people were listening somewhere in the back corners. I asked if my own music can be played and the main guy said no. I then politely explained why I wanted to listen to my own but he replied that someone earlier uploaded a virus on their computers off of thumb drive with own music therefore now such practice isn't allowed. I will play you an incredible demo he said, we get best sounding room awards every show so please take a sweet spot in the center and enjoy our presentation (there was a big red crest under one of the empty chairs).

    I sat down and he turned on the music. First it was some electronic stuff with ocean waves and other spatial effects, then it was a close miked male vocal accompanied by something dinging in the background. I can't fully enjoy a voice when it has size of a school bus, it scares me inducing nightmares and such. I decided to not take chances and ran away.
     
  4. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    7,464
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Winnipeg
    Just one of these days I'd like to see a company showcase their $50k speakers, but then trot out a beastly old Ampzilla or something like that to power it. Heck, the novelty of it would probably be a good draw in of itself.
     
  5. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

    Pyrate BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,594
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    near Munich, Germany
    I think back on Changstar you actually commented that the MBL room was too bright. Let me look for it...
    It was 2015: http://www.changstar.com/www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2477.60.html
    You also mentioned that it was better before that.
    2013 MBL comments: http://www.changstar.com/www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,998.30.html
    I remember reading that the MBL were crazy bright, but I can't seem to find it right now.

    Oh, and I found my favourite Anax quote with regard to these shows:
    Any impressions?

    While I don't have as much experience, this is also what I think. Especially smaller changes are very hard to find in measurements. Place a pillow at the first reflection point at head height? Looking at the measurements: Is it this spike in the impulse response that got smaller? But when listening, the change is obvious.
    Big changes are very easy to see in the measurements, but listening still tells you so much more about the sound.

    I read your comments on the Coltrane 3 (and that you wanted to buy them) a while back, so that made me very interested in hearing it at the High End show this year. Unfortunately I didn't really get too much time with the Coltrane 3. Of course they were also hooked up to very different systems and also had very different room treatment, so I can't really compare them. I will say that overall I very much enjoyed the sound of both rooms. One of the very few rooms that I enjoyed.
    I wish I had a chance to listen to the EAR/Marten combination. I have a feeling that I would easily prefer the EAR amplifiers over the Analog Domain ones they demoed them with at High End.

    The Mingus Quintet was also of particular interest to me because I think they use the exact same midrange driver that I will likely use for my own DIY speaker. I focused a lot on the audibility of the 9.5kHz dome resonance with 1st order crossovers. I concluded for myself that this would likely not bother me too much. Somehow I have less of a problem with ringing if it's at or above 9kHz.

    I would also agree that the ceramic midrange and diamond tweeters work together very well. I actually think that a ceramic midrange and ceramic tweeter combination can sound less coherent. I feel like there is a certain sound to the ceramic tweeters (in a bad way) that the ceramic midranges (or diamond tweeters) seem to lack. This doesn't make too much sense as the ceramic tweeters also have no resonance issues in the audio band and far beyond, just like the diamond tweeters, but I really do think that the diamond is an inherently "better" material. (Tweeters generally seem to be a very complicated topic, as they often have no resonance issues or FR irregularities in the audioband and yet they sound so different! Maybe this can really be explained by the lower distortion of the diamond tweeters.) The two top of the line Tidal speakers actually use 5" diamond midranges! (But I don't think the sound is what you're looking for, which is not the driver's fault ...)

    It's interesting that you mention the aluminium sandwich woofers. Yes, I have a feeling that this may hurt ultimate coherency a bit, but I also think that this is a trade-off well worth it for being able to time-align the drivers perfectly in a first order crossover design. I wish I had visited Accuton while I was near Cologne a few weeks ago, to talk to them about these kind of things, but I somehow missed my chance.
    The aluminium sandwich woofers seem to ring much more than the ceramic drivers of similar size. I feel that this can be heard with first-order crossovers. I wonder how the new 7" woofers compare. I also wonder how the exclusive Coltrane 3 7" Cell midrange compares to the 5" one used in the Mingus Quintet.

    It could also be that the lack of midrange fullness/warmth can be attributed to the room. Sometimes there are certain reflections that develop a suckout in the lower mids. Technically having multiple drivers like in the Mingus Quintet should minimize such behaviour and I honestly think that it's much more likely that this is the speaker itself. Technically I think it's very hard to get that aspect right with the use of first order crossovers. (But I have no experience myself to confirm this yet.) The stereophile measurements of the Coltrane 3 show a lack of energy between about 180Hz and 400Hz both in-room and in anechoic conditions. (The suckout around 450Hz actually fills in in the room, this could very well be because JA had to window the impulse response, so he didn't get reflections in the measurements. In other words, the suckout in the anechoic response might be a measurement artifact.)
    I may have to "cheat" a bit when building my own speakers and use a 2nd or 3rd order low-pass for the woofer.

    I have also not heard the Bird 2 yet. It could be that the Bird 2 has significantly more warmth, I don't know. I did feel that the Mingus Quintet was just slightly too bright for me and maybe lacking some warmth. I didn't complain about the brightness because literally every other room at High End was brighter (What's up with all those bright speakers?!). They also tuned it for some fat bass at High End (but well controlled), so lack of warmth would probably be less objectionable alone due to that. The bass did not seem to be dominated by room modes at all and went very deep for 7" drivers. I never missed the bass extension. They're not kidding when they say "A full-range speaker with deep bass and full dynamics".

    Regarding precision and transparency: It could also be that the stainless steel plate helps in this regard. Many manufacturers seem to use similar plates to mount the drivers in their very high end models. On the other hand the Cell drivers need a very precise hole cutout because of the weird mounting mechanism. Could be that it's very hard to mount in a wooden enclosure. The Coltrane 3 doesn't have such a steel plate, but as I understand it, its front plate is different, so it might not be needed as much.
    I'm also wondering if the Cell drivers are inherently more resolving than the Accuton drivers before them. Also, again, wondering how the 5" and 7" drivers compare in this regard. Marvey mentioned that the bigger wide-band drivers can sound faster and more resolving and I wonder if this holds true for the Accutons as well. This is also something that I want to clear up before buying drivers.
    (I plan on making a speaker similar to the Mingus Quintet in the midrange/treble (except that I can't afford diamond tweeters) with first order crossovers, but in an open baffle and with a 15" bass driver. Should be interesting.)

    Regarding the first order crossovers, I certainly feel like there is a certain immediacy and spaciousness that is likely exclusive to phase optimized speakers. Of the speakers that I heard at High End, the two Marten speakers with their first order crossovers were the only ones that could just disappear in the space. This could also be the room, specific recording, etc. But I really feel like there was something special about the sound of the two Martens with first order crossovers.

    Overall I'm really looking forward to your comments on the Mingus Quintet In your home. The comparision against your Bird 2 should be very interesting.
     
  6. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

    Staff Member Pyrate MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    8,960
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Irvine CA
    Yes. I can't see the links from here, but I sort of remember that. I didn't ask this time, but a few years back I asked a rep for another audio company if they did anything to equalize things up for their demo. Dude came clean and said they did. So possible that sort of thing was going down on top of room treatment.

    Anyhow. I mentioned this before, but before buying my Mirage little omnis, I was considering the Orbs as well. I read in some place that the Orbs were superior. The Orbs are sort of a single small full range driver in a more classic (non-omni) configuration. Relative to the Mirages, the Orbs are very bright. So omnis are not always going to be super bright, it depends if the tuning takes into consideration in-room performance.

    EDIT: Actually, I think it was the small Gallos room instead of Orbs.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
  7. Audio Zenith

    Audio Zenith Custom Title KGB

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    349
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Normally my impressions on sound are fairly similar to @ultrabike and I don't know what happened this time. I heard MBL room either on Friday or Saturday morning, maybe EQ wasn't engaged, maybe room treatments weren't dialed in yet. All sounded crazy diffused with messy low end.
    Acapella was bright with HF bleeding into the mids colouring most everything there.
     
  8. Wfojas

    Wfojas Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    848
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    CA
    I caught the mainstream coverage this AM here.

    http://www.stereophile.com/content/saturday-show-newport#qF0Qy0MkAQpgqe3s.97

    This post conveniently enough covered rooms I best liked, the Salk Sound/Schiit room, the Alma Music with the Avantgarde Uno XD, the Marten room and the AudioAnalysis/Changspeed room. The Salk Sound /Schitt setup must have cost 1/15th of the Alma Avantgarde room.
     
  9. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

    Staff Member Pyrate MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    8,960
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Irvine CA
    Or maybe the music material they played when I was there worked well with the equipment, but the music material they played while you where there did not.
     
  10. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

    Pyrate BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,594
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    near Munich, Germany
    @Audio Zenith: Sounds exactly like what I had expected. The Acapella stuff that I listened to at the showroom was definitely very bright, but it brought other things to the table. The showroom was a huge, acoustically treated room, so I expect it to sound much worse at show conditions. That room might have been one of the best rooms for speakers I've seen yet.
    The ion tweeter is interesting, but I'm not sure if I like it. It seems like the issues with distortion can't easily be solved. Crossing it at over 10kHz should get rid of the harmonic distorion, but not the IMD. The Lansche stuff is crossed way lower, but theirs is different (but maybe not better).
     
  11. Audio Zenith

    Audio Zenith Custom Title KGB

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    349
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Could be, that is why I pretty much NEVER listen to anything without my own music. In some critical cases I don't mind going extra mile and bring my computer, download their drivers or tether wi-fi off my cellphone for their Tidal to work. It actually pays off. For example last year Robert Lee whose ears I trust the most went into the room with JBL M2 ( I think ), listened to their own music and came out impressed. I then brought our own test tracks and issues were immediately evident to both of us.

    Sometimes manufacturers play content that best suits their designs which makes figuring things out quite difficult. I wonder how @Wfojas listened to Audio Analysis because I thought it was doing a big disservice to Apogee form factor. I even asked what they did to the drivers (I think this Greek company became known for their replacement Apogee drivers ?) and they said diaphragms are now suspended! to improve lower frequency range..... .
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,777
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Another easy trick is roll up a tube with construction paper and tape. Shove this tube into the existing port to effectively extend its length and lower the resonant frequency of the port. Useful when stock port resonance frequency hits a room mode.
     
  13. Wfojas

    Wfojas Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    848
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    CA
    Thanks, will try it in a bit. Is there some relation to the length and the resulting frequency?
     
  14. mtoc

    mtoc SBAF's Resident Shit-Stirrer

    Banned
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2015
    Likes Received:
    85
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Lord, guys here suddenly taking about $50k hi-end, serious...
     
  15. DrForBin

    DrForBin Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    710
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    The Great NorthWet
    [QUOTE=

    (And, by the way, we used Blue Jeans cables at the show.)

    hello,

    f**k yes!
     

Share This Page