That time a member continued to crap up a thread with his entitled whining

Discussion in 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' started by Jozurr, Nov 2, 2018.

  1. Jozurr

    Jozurr Almost "Made"

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    If this was Hifiman and was releasing "tweaks" to a $2200 pair of headphones during pre-order, we'd be cussing it down to the ground (something something beta testers something), but ZMF gets a pass.
     
  2. Elnrik

    Elnrik Super Friendly

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    Largely because Zach is actively getting feedback from the community and using that to ensure your pre-ordered product is the best it can be, not making a design change because the super cheap glue holding the driver in place turned out to be a little too super cheap.
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Totally true. Not my fault HMF didn't read and embody How to Win Friends..., but ZMF did. I totally understand how we can be scary to vendors, but we are not that scary. Yes, we are "more fair"* to vendors who engage with us. Besides, at the end of the day, we have measurements. And there are better kinds of measurements just around the corner.

    I do work on behalf of many film / entertainment studios, visiting post production houses and reporting back. I'd be lying if I said the post houses that treated me better (donuts, coffee, lunch, honesty, engagement, sincerity, etc.)** got better treatment from me in turn: a more consultative approach, more effort into framing issues into proper context, a "better" report. Then again, it's kind of like a chicken-egg thing. The ones who treat me better usually have their shit together. It's the little things like a nod from the owner, saying that they care about their clients concerns. Little things go a long way.

    *"More fair" on SBAF only means @Hands will not post a photo of a piece of shit for his review.
    **Bribing me with gear doesn't work. When I started CS in 2011, I imagined it would be cool if one day I could be like Project86 on HF with all that stuff. It turned out to be more of a curse, even though all the "shit" I have lying around is like 173x better than Project86's ChiFi junk. Too much stuff around the house. Lots of it gets lent to @brencho.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I like HFM, but I still feel a little bit burned with how the HE560 production pads were different from pre-production. Now that I think about it, it may have been more than the pads. I heard a pre-production HE560 and thought it was fantastic, like a mini-Abyss. When the production version came out, a few people were like WTF Marv? I know that's the only incident, but it does give me pause.

    I trust @zach915m to make an even better production product than pre-production. Again, it's interaction, direct interaction where little things can be discussed, feedback well taken, etc. I can guarantee, I can trust, that ZMF is not going to deliver the production version with a set of different pads that will make the headphone sound like shit.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  5. PacoTaco

    PacoTaco Friend

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    Zach actually communicates and the changes are based on community feedback. He is very transparent about it. If HFM were the same way, then they would get praise.

    Instead, HFM fires well-liked PR/Community outrage employees because Head-Fi pointed at them.
     
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  6. Jozurr

    Jozurr Almost "Made"

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    A product should not in preorder stage if changes are being made to it since the people who are buying it is based on impressions theyve read and if theyve heard the product in its final stages etc - not complete blind faith in Zach to deliver a product to their liking. Nowhere does it say on the product page that changes are expected to the final product. This isnt kickstarter. Why not wait for a final iteration of the product before taking preorders? thats not an unreasonable ask.
     
  7. Jinxy245

    Jinxy245 Vegan Puss

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    It's not available for pre-order yet. He'll iron out the final tuning based on feedback & his own preferences. Unless you've heard it you're still buying blind (or deaf if you prefer). I don't see the big deal myself, if you don't like the idea, don't order it.
     
  8. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    ^this

    ZMF pre-orders aren't being accepted for another 8.5 days. (Nov 16)
     
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  9. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Like others have said, pre-orders are not yet open. C'mon, learn to read before getting riled up.

    Also, you can blame guys like me for nudging Zach towards implementing additional changes.

    Everyone's just trying to make sure customers and friends get the best product they can in an open manner. Don't over think this for the sake of wanting to be outraged at something.
     
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  10. Magnetostatic_Tubephile

    Magnetostatic_Tubephile Friend

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    These last minute adjustments remind me of Mrspeakers a bit too much. Mature the product, be truly convinced of its qualities, betatest it (silently) in the background... then announce it and release to public. Schiit is a great example of how it should be done IMHO.

    Also, I sense a clear bias here. Not the first time I accounted on fact people here might a bit overboard with their sympathy towards ZMF. Announcing apparently immature 2k+ USD product and getting away with that just fine on SBAF (with tons of praise actually)? I am surprised to say the least.
     
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  11. Baten

    Baten Acquaintance

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    I'm guessing that the "immature" product going from "very good" to "even better" would have a lot to do with it rather than some blatant/unlistenable flaws. Not saying sympathy doesn't help of course :)
     
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  12. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    @Magnetostatic_Tubephile I might recommend you get to know Zach, then. He's a super awesome dude. Very approachable and community-oriented, a rare thing in the hobby (especially interacting with us degenerates). He's a straight shooter too, open, honest, but super chill.

    On top of that, he's more of a boutique manufacturer, so you can combine these elements to be more forgiving of pricing. You get hand-crafted, wood headphones from a small shop rather than marked up, mass produced stuff of the usual kind. I get it, though. It's still expensive and worth questioning. I'd just be cautious attempting to lump this all together with common industry trends when there might be more nuanced factors at play.

    Anyway, shit happens. Zach thought he had it ready and that we'd be able to post publicly, but then got some opinions suggesting otherwise. I'd point fingers at guys like me first, since I commented publicly, before questioning him. But, hey, I appreciate someone willing to run with last minute feedback, public, community-driven, private, or however it's done.

    Again, actually final units are being re-sent to folks to post impressions well before the pre-order date goes live. Marv has a final set. I'll be getting one soon. It's not like the rug is going to be pulled out from under everyone after pre-orders are in place.
     
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  13. Lyer25

    Lyer25 Too sensitive for SBAF

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    Probably superfluous:

    ZMF's cans deviate from neutral and that doesn't sit well with people of a certain audio philosophy. Gotcha. I've not heard any to date, but measurements and impressions suggest that they'd be right up my alley, so yes I'm biased. That said:

    Unlike Clears or HD800s or what-have-you, these are produced at a more sedate pace than manufactured cans*, and they certainly lean into the heirloom marketing. That means they can take liberties larger-scale manufacturers cannot— if they compromised sonic performance for vintage sofa aesthetic, though, I expect they'd have gotten a much colder reception. But they didn't. What harm can be done when sourcing opinions on tuning from trusted individuals and more experienced listeners when it'll take just as much time to make each pair of cans with these changes implemented? That's an honest question.

    Heck my Kaspersky subscription updates often enough to be a nuisance and people expect AAA video games, the crème de la crème of the art**, to come with Day 1 patches nowadays because dev teams almost always leave issues in for shipped products. Not entirely equivalent, yes, those are the products of larger teams and in the case of the first at least it's due to the dynamic nature of security threats, but the sentiment remains. The sum total of it is that it results in a better product which, again, needn't result in additional delays. As for announcing the product far ahead of launch, that's just marketing: you make something you hope people will like, announce it before release to generate interest, and play on that to ensure as many people buy it as possible.

    I'm not a fan of the MrSpeakers I've heard (the latest I've gotten ears on is the C Flow I think? I might enjoy their newer stuff.), but I agree that shitting on them for offering tuning kits to improve/change up their products is mean, but unlike here those are released after the fact. Still not quite equivalent.

    *manufactured = manu factum = made by hand, yes, but even I'm not that pedantic, haha.
    ** Yes I called video games art.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
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  14. Magnetostatic_Tubephile

    Magnetostatic_Tubephile Friend

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    I mean - the product is not even released yet and I already read about multiple attempts to revise it, even directly during a show as reported by Hands.

    Me as a consumer not really being convinced now honestly. Would definitely prefer a bit more well-thought and private procedure to betatesting and finetuning. I just want the finalized product, not an endless stream of pre- or post- revisions. I hate revisions. (Looking at you Hifiman, Audeze, Mrspeakers etc.).

    But, as Hands explained above, I dont think that this is all Zach's fault. Its not actually a fault. I mean, nobody died (hopefully). But maybe please reconsider next time before releasing info to public (way too soon).
     
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  15. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    Rolling changes are fine before a product has been released, I don't see the problem there. I just don't see the point of posting more than "initial thoughts" when more changes are ongoing.

    Have to agree though, if this was any other brand, I could see this playing out much differently. But SBAF has their preferences and that's fine.
     
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  16. PacoTaco

    PacoTaco Friend

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    No offense, but this comes off as very entitled considering the context (as in a small boutique company.)

    So, why isnt a company, based on customer feedback they get from showing preproduction units they thought were mature enough to loan out, not allowed to make some changes based on the feedback they get? Should he have just released the headphone and save the suggestions for a version 2?

    Preorders aren't up, production doesn't start until next month most likely, and these are hand made. I dont see what the big deal is. Zach is letting people know (those that get loaner pairs) that he's making changes. They, in turn, let us know. Preorders haven't even started. This argument shouldn't be a thing in the first place, as it was based on not even bothering to look into whether or not preorders were even open.

    Zach is given slack because, quite frankly, hes a very open, awesome fellow. And, quite a few of us that have been in this hobby for more than a decade understanding what situations this is fine in (like Zach) and when it isnt (HFM doing no communication of changes going into production.)

    If Sennheiser did something similar to what Zach did, then maybe they could have avoided the HD820 being shit. Or Schiit's first amps blowing headphones up. Or Audeze's LCD 2c and EL8's fucky, or the Mobius having the weird issues it does.
     
  17. Elnrik

    Elnrik Super Friendly

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    It's funny how people will complain, deride, and bitch to no end about the lack of transparency on products, design decisions, etc, yet when they are given that transparency they complain, deride, and bitch to no end about how it wasn't well-thought out, and the beta testing and fine tuning procedures should have been kept private.

    I don't know if it's entitlement or what. It just seems idiotic to me. Perhaps both. No offense intended, of course.
     
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  18. Magnetostatic_Tubephile

    Magnetostatic_Tubephile Friend

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    Fully public betatesting (many pages of discussions, impressions, measurements, tweaking, ...) I consider inappropriate of a professional product and confusing to enduser. I would prefer SBAF to post this to some private section e.g. Club Room. This is not DIY guys.

    I would post the very same comments regardless we are talking about Zach, Sennheiser of Hifiman. I dont really get this 'boutique manufacturer' bias. You either want to be a professional manufacturer (and therefore be ready for high standards as a must), or just clearly mark your efforts as "DIY / freetime activity".

    Honestly, it might be that I just dont really care who is releasing the headphone. Its either good enough, or not. Either too expensive, or not. Either matured enough, or not.

    This is NOT the transparency that I want. Schiit is a good example of how transparency on manufacturers side should be handled.
     
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  19. zach915m

    zach915m MOT: ZMF Headphones

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    The headphones (Verite and aeolus) are done for better or worse. :Violin:Pre-order starts next week, November 16th. Sorry if it hasn't been clear that pre-ordering hasn't started yet.

    All parts are final and ordered. I highly appreciate the feedback of @Hands to help with with a couple final minor (non-design) tweaks on the Verite that made it completely final.

    It took me a year to get to the point where I could show the headphone publicly, I do 97% of R/D on my own and with my employees and close local friends' ears, and then I always feel it's best to get new perspectives to fill in that last 3% which in all honesty is where a lot of the magic is. Feedback from others is immensely useful, I believe everything can be made better by utilizing feedback.

    I agree 100% the product should be final before taking pre-orders, and it is. I'm sorry if I gave the impression we were still in a developmental stage by utilizing community feedback for the final tuning tweaks, in truth I started developing the driver in early 2017 and have been working on the actual headphone for a year. I think everyone who gets a Verite or Aeolus wants the best product possible, and I vow to deliver that!

    Marv's measurements are done on a set that does have the final tuning. We will also be posting measurements by the end of the year (and hopefully before the end of preorder) on our AP set-up using a AP515 and AECM206.

    If anyone has any questions you want to ask us to clear up any confusion on the new models feel free to send me an email or PM! I will also try to make sure the website gets further additions to be clear.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  20. zach915m

    zach915m MOT: ZMF Headphones

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    We have never revised a product post release and never will. We have only come out with one version of each of our headphones so far.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018

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