The Two Channel Advice Thread

Discussion in 'Advice Threads' started by purr1n, Nov 10, 2016.

  1. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Ah the Larsen's - I've seen these yes. The intention with those I believe is they are intended to be placed close to walls, as far as I recall? Very unique design. The dealer room would certainly have impacted the sound based on how you've described it.

    Tubes could help yes - and if you're planning to stick with the Larsen's in that room, you may need to do some research on electronics that present a wide soundstage. Preamp and power amp will probably make the biggest difference. However, I have found that at a certain point, your speakers and room will definitely be a limiting factor. I've gone through this recently with a set of speakers I've owned for about a year, and thinking of permanently switching to another set of speakers that I've be auditioning alongside them because I really prefer an expansive soundstage over one that is very narrowly focused between the speakers.
     
  2. ohshitgorillas

    ohshitgorillas Friend

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    Is this the place to ask for turntable stuff? I recently picked up a used version of one of the old Rega Planar 3 tables. It came with a working Sumiko Blue Point cart/needle, but I put a major bend into the cantilever, ironically I slipped trying to put the plastic guard on. I have a white belt and a machined aluminum subplatter upgrade.

    I have a Shure M97Xe on there now that I like, but I really feel that the P3 deserves a better needle/cartridge. Something in the $350 or lower range, I am looking into a Denon DL103 or an Ortofon 2M bronze (would only need the needle, friend offered me the cartridge if I go that route). A friend also recommended I check out some higher end Shure carts or needles. My sound preferences prioritize dynamics, realism, coherence, and speed/transient response, vaguely in that order.
     
  3. eternaldrake

    eternaldrake New

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    I know there are probably specific threads on this topic, but I wanted to ask here anyways and see if I could get some broad big picture recommendations.

    I got lucky at an estate sale today and got my first real 2-channel setup (totem sttaf + parasound 2100 preamp and 2125 amp for 500$ total whew). Previously I've been running kg4s and a pioneer sx-780, just with my turntable.

    I want to get a proper digital setup going with these now. I havent picked a DAC out yet but I'll probably end up going with a soekris or Gungnir Multibit.

    The part I'm curious about is the source to that. I have a large library of 320/flac on my computer, and would ideally like a server of some sort I could stream from/sync to that library over the network and play it to the DAC. Not interested in tidal/spotify streaming.

    Is a pi+hifiberry generally considered a serious solution for something like this? The first things that come to mind are either that or getting an old computer and turning it into a plex server.
     
  4. Stuff Jones

    Stuff Jones Friend

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    I'm no two channel brainiac, but what is the downside of active speakers? Why wouldn't allowing the speaker make to customize the DAC and amp for the speakers always yield better results, per dollar?

    I ask this abstractly but also because I have a 360 dollar Vanadoo TO system that sounds loads better than my 1000 dollar B&W 602 S2, Yamaha AX-596 based system from years ago. Obviously a small sample, but got me thinking.

    Now obviously there's some pleasure to be had through matching components and the ability to incrementally upgrade. But again, dollar for dollar, is there any reason not to go the active route?
     
  5. alubis

    alubis Acquaintance

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    From my experience, potential downsides are:
    1. My active ATC has a low 10k input impedance (which is common to active monitors), so need careful matching for preamp.
    2. Some actives come with dacs such as Kii three and dynaudio focus xd. You might not like the sounds of the built in dacs.
    3. Most actives sound neutral, hence might not suitable for your sound preference. For ex.: I never heard any active speakers that sounds like a Harbeth.

    In the end, it all depends on what type of sound you are looking for.

     
  6. Stuff Jones

    Stuff Jones Friend

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    I just mean technically - per dollar won't active speakers sound better, sound signature preference aside.
     
  7. alubis

    alubis Acquaintance

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    For me, given the same speaker I would choose for the active version because yes it sounds better probably because of this http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/active-amplification/

     
  8. JeffYoung

    JeffYoung Friend

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    @eternaldrake, a Pi is a serious solution to rendering. If you're happy keeping the storage on your existing computer then then Pi/Hifiberry/PSU would be all you'd need between it and you DAC.

    Another option is to have a separate server for storage. You can also have that server do the rendering, but it's generally accepted that you're better off with a separate renderer.

    Hmmm.... I should add that the Pi can be somewhat DIY. You'll probably need to load renderer software on it, and possibly configure it (depending on which rendering solution you're using).

    There are companies that sell Pi-based-renderers that are plug-n-play. Bryston and Metrum come to mind....
     
  9. eternaldrake

    eternaldrake New

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    Yeah, I should have been more specific. I have a 2TB spinner for media storage on my existing PC, and would be using that for storage and the Pi for rendering audio to DAC. I just ordered a DAC so I'm gonna order a Pi and Hifiberry when I get home and follow along with the Kattefjaes's tutorial on setting it up.

    Thanks for the clarification.
     
  10. bixby

    bixby Friend

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    Amps and dacs can and do have an effect on soundstage to a degree, but it is minor compared to the room. The better you tame early reflections the better you can hear the nuances of the recording: hall spatial cues, depth, soundstage, decay etc. Good luck.
     
  11. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    I don't think any active speaker can touch TrueHighEnd TM.
    There are technical benefit to both ideologies, but for ultimate sound performance amp and passive wins, even on paper.
    My gut feeling says that actives are better value until 1000..1500 $ a pair.
    Personally I would never ever buy actives for several thousands of $.

    Active makes sense when budget is tight or space is limited or portability is needed or matching components feels too much hassle (I bet the B&W and your Sony didn't get along too well).

    Problem no 2: there is no 'best' amplifier technology.
    No sane designer would put 100W class A amp inside a speaker enclosure.
    Also, active crossovers on speakers that I have heard are rather dull sounding vs high quality passives.

    Bottom line - there is the lazy camp who gets actives, and then there is the enthusiast camp who chooses passives rout
     
  12. bixby

    bixby Friend

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    No downside to active aside from cost. Really good ones cost quite a bit. But I have heard a few that are not over $3k -4k a pair that are pretty nice. You just have to like the overall sound. I think if I were starting from scratch I might look at actives for main setup. But for now, I have a bit invested in electronics and am pretty happy with speakers to match. Would cost me double to quadruple to upset them at least with actives.

    and @alubis is right you have to like the sound signature, but that is true of all speakers really.
     
  13. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    What are the technical benefits of large signal passive filters? All I can come up is convenience, which is felt rather than heard.
     
  14. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    I'd love a pair of ATC SCM40 actives!
     
  15. mitochondrium

    mitochondrium Friend

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    So how good are the odds you will find an amp for your passive speaker which will match all drivers better than proffesionals who choose one amp for each individual driver in an active speaker?
    Doing this might be fun but chances for succeding are slim.
    Why would an active speaker be more expensive than a passive + amp? Don't think that this is very likely
    Fully agree there is no best amplifier technology so the best thing to do is to match every single driver with the appropriate amplification like in actives.
     
  16. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Active does mean extra switching apparatus (all sorts of distortion products).
    Passive XO is not transparent either, but looses in different things.
    Most annoyingly capacitor is the problem, but I'll take it before digital or analog opamp based filter any day.
    At least for mids and highs. Digital xo is out of the question for compatibility reasons, too. Can't use it with your uber dac or TT rig properly.
    After all a well tuned passive xo can have quite nice phase response, not be all that lossy and is much simpler signal bath.

    I originally meant passive as speaker. It could have or not have any xo internally.
    Sure, a line level passive xo is best of both worlds. I take the technical argument back when you show me 3 way speaker with class A amp for at least mids and highs with passive xo on line level, all inside the box.
     
  17. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    I'd take a dsp filtered active multi-amp/dac system if playback fidelity would be my main goal. Not having to deal with passive components is one thing, but this path greatly opens up driver choice as sensitivity can be taken out of equation. On top if that time correction is nice to have, not to mention eq-ing around many of the room problems.

    TT is a problem, but nothing a good AD can't take care of, hehe... As for uber dacs, stop being poor and get four yggies!
     
  18. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Ideally, this could be. And, sure, the active speaker paradigm can be extended so that it contains all the known uber tech that is available. It should be possible to even stuff tubes inside speaker boxes, lol.

    Looking around the active speakers available for purchase: either Class AB or class D amps.
    Really best tech they could use for sound fidelity? Hi-Fi nuts for some reason go for Class A silicon at least, many want to swing tubes.
    Usually the xo-s are opamp based (blehh) or in the latest meme actives it's digital, your analog goes through AD which is disgusting. Like eating expensive sushi that has gone through colon once already (sorry, religious bias).

    Active studio monitors I have had the chance to look inside have truly boring absolutely nothing special run of the mill amps inside. Psu-s are bare minimal to get the job done. Only thing unique about them is the filter, and perhaps they thought about damping for woofer and more bias for tweeter in case class AB. It's an engineering task, optimized for masses.

    Same can be done with passive line level xo-s, no ?

    Yeah, good point. I'd get 6pc of Soekris OEMs instead though. Then I could do the 'filter' in filter.

    It really shouldn't. But as is, anyone can ask what ever they can get away with.
    There really is no point trying to save money in sub 1k$ with passives + amp for simply generally good sound.
    Studio monitors are really good for that.
     
  19. philipmorgan

    philipmorgan Member of the month

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    I hear this in a lot of different places and feel compelled to respond, xkcd #386 notwithstanding.

    This sounds more like marketing hype than reality. A big part of me suspects that "we sent seven samurais to every point of the compass on a ten-year quest to hand-select the perfect amp for each driver in our multi-way active system" (that's the marketing copy version) actually translates to "we picked an amp for each driver with about the right wattage output from this OEM catalog we buy all our other shit from".

    I don't actually know one way or another, but the "amps perfectly matched to drivers" line you inevitably hear about active speakers sure smells more than faintly of BS to me. Again, if by "perfectly matched" they mean "suitable output for the driver it's wired to+actively crossed over at the right frequency", sure. But I'm not sure I'd expect much more than that.

    Am I missing something here? Are there active speakers that represent more of an engineering achievement than that?

    EDIT: hilariously, @Priidik makes a very similar point 2m before I did. Jinx.
     
  20. mitochondrium

    mitochondrium Friend

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    @Priidik
    If you think that class AB and D sucj and if you do not like opamps than probably active speakers will hardly be to your liking in terms of amplification but then we are talking taste not facts, the proof of the speaker is in the listening, I am not averse to opamps, smps, class AB and D amps and I do not mind a good AD conversion, each to their own

    @philipmorgan
    I do not think that it takes rocket sience or any special technology in order to find or build an amp which matches a given driver well but then I am convinced that good enough is good enough no need to overdo it in order to improve performance by 0.1 %, the law of diminishing returns will get you. Would not the fact that you have one dedicated amp for each driver make the match easier? Or do you want to multiple amp the passive speaker (depending on how many drivers it uses)? For a speaker with three different drivers this would be a hell of a task, because you had to make sure to test all the different combinations?
    This "suitable output for the driver it's wired to+actively crossed over at the right frequency" for me is a good start likely to be better than most things I could come up with when combining a passive speaker with an amp.
     

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