Tidal sounds not as good..... as Redbook FLAC rips

Discussion in 'Music and Recordings' started by Big D Design, Feb 17, 2017.

  1. Big D Design

    Big D Design RIP 2021

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    Just wanted to know if others are experiencing Tidal not being close at all to my Redbook CD FLAC rips. I'm using
    Exact Audio Copy software. It only cost $7.99 to get the lifetime CD information lookup from another company to link to it after 10 CD rips. Anyway, I feel this really hasn't been mentioned, at all in the forums other than me.

    I have the Modi Multibit as my DAC. I have tried both HiFi and HiFi/Master settings with the Modi Multibit checked in the settings.

    I mean there is a difference that is so drastic, that I would be buying the CD if I find some music I like. It is not supposed to be like that. I can only assume that it is the Tidal software itself that is destroying the sound. Feel free to sound off on this.
     
  2. DigMe

    DigMe Friend

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    Overall I haven't noticed this but the mastering of any given album is huge. When you listen to the "Master" version of The Talking Heads Once in a Lifetime there is a very notable loss of soundstage and to me the master is pretty screwy as compared even to their own Hifi version and the CD version which I have burned to FLAC. When I listen to some other tracks that I have personally burned to FLAC from CD using EAC they are really close as far as I can tell. I compared some sample songs such as Reckoner from Radiohead's In Rainbows, Everything in Its Right Place from Kid A and Performance from the latest The XX album. Those all sounded really close to my FLACs.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  3. Big D Design

    Big D Design RIP 2021

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    Interesting. I'm listening to Kenny Chesney's "Life on a Rock" and it's an album that is laid back with an island flavor to it. Anyway the sound of the Redbook FLAC rip is much more open, airy and soundstage wider. So noticeable. I have tried my artists and get the same result.
     
  4. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    What are the settings you're using in Tidal and what are you using to play back the files?

    I would be surprised if there was a big difference, but not if there were slight differences.
     
  5. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    The comparison is useless unless your CD has the same mastering as the Tidal files.

    Also I only use streaming to try out new music to see if I want to get it, so I don't even have the lossless tier, I just use the high quality lossy tier.
     
  6. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    The main issue that I have is how many tracks on Tidal simply won't play- either with their client or third-party access. The client just sits there with the busy spinner and never manages to play.

    Examples:

    "Surface To Air" by The Chemical Brothers
    "Choke" by Hybrid

    That's even more irritating than the fact that you can't choose which mastering you're listening to (often leaving you with more dynamically compressed "remasters"). For such a high price per month, I'd expect a more reliable service.
     
  7. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    There is a SQ difference between Tidal and Tidal-enabled apps.

    My SQ observation as of Roon 1.3 has been:
    Roon 1.3 > Audirvana+ > Tidal native app

    Before that it was:
    Audirvana+ > Roon 1.2 > Tidal native app

    YMMV, personal preferences, and all that since I know Roon isn't cheap.

    Now, part of it has to do with DSP, admittedly. In Roon and Audirvana I've been upsampling to 192 and 176.4 respectively. I much prefer the upsampled sound as I find it less flat / more alive. And I've found that Roon's new upsampler sounds more dynamic than Audirvana's iZotope engine.

    Lastly, I'm not even a Roon subscriber at this point. They've renewed free trials for me a couple times and I've been freeloading. But, honestly, I think I'm going to ante up at the next trial expiration because I don't want to go back now.

    My advice: try Roon. If you're on a Mac, try Audirvana also. They are free to try. During your trial period, play with features and settings to see what you can get out of them.

    EDIT. Added some of my Roon settings screen caps.

    Screenshot_20170218-095834.png Screenshot_20170218-095919.png Screenshot_20170218-095930.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  8. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    I've seen it happen before, but not frequently. I know it does not help, but both of those just came up with zero delay for me in Roon. So, again, it definitely seems like a temporal problem from what I've seen.
     
  9. Big D Design

    Big D Design RIP 2021

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    @Serious
    I playback Tidal in the Tidal program. I use in settings Schiit USB, Hi/Master or Hi. Both don't sound as good as Rebook rips thru my Groove Music program that comes with Windows10.

    @bazelio
    I see that you using Roon makes for better sound. This concretes somewhat that the Tidal software is screwing up the FLAC presentation. Some say that you can save the FLAC file from Tidal for later. How is that done?
     
  10. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    For the longest while I refused to use Roon (pre 1.3) due to SQ vs Audirvana+ with iZotope, even though I much preferred Roon's remote Android app user interface (and even disliked the inconvenience of Audirvana's remote app only working on Apple shit). But now, finally, with Roon 1.3 I feel I have both better SQ and a better remote user interface that works on my Android phones and tablets (as well as Apple, if that's what you use). Plus Roon has nice features for discovering new artists and things like that. I'm a fan.

    Regarding offline playback, yes it's doable. Will leave that as an exercise for the reader to figure out.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  11. Big D Design

    Big D Design RIP 2021

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    Just finished comparing Tidal and Foobar 2000 on my workstation using Windows7. Both tracks sound similar using a tube headphone amp and HiFiMan Headphones. i'm wondering if it is the Windows10 music stack of something. Aren't Win7 and Win10 stacks different? Tidal sounds better here on my workstation with Win7. Go figure.
     
  12. Big D Design

    Big D Design RIP 2021

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    Repeated listening thru HiFiMan shows still some more openness with the Redbook FLAC rip. This difference is still there, the HiFiMan hp are more forgiving than my Martin Logans. Willie Nelson is just a tad clearer with the Redbook rip. Image tad better.
     
  13. Big D Design

    Big D Design RIP 2021

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    I must admit. Tidal with headphones on is a pleasurable experience.
     
  14. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Unless you have some way to ensure that the Master file that TIDAL is using is the same master used for the CD you ripped, then you don't have a way to know what you're actually comparing.

    Not that the TIDAL app playing through the standard OS Mixer won't potentially sound different to something bypassing all that and talking directly to the device (which happens with the TIDAL app on macOS VS. using Audirvana or Roon and is why I don't use the native TIDAL app there), but without provenance as to common masterings all you can say is which you prefer not why they sound different.
     
  15. Big D Design

    Big D Design RIP 2021

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    Looks like there are some workarounds. Roon subscription is out of the question for me. I'm happy for the free 180 days of Tidal and then I'm going to keep it. Seems worth the money. It's close enough in sound quality not to aggravate me too much. It's possible my Modi Multibit DAC is not so much a friend of Tidal. And that would be what is causing the difference in sound. Anyways thanks to all with your input on this. The Tidal service is pretty good for what you get. Maybe there is a perfect DAC that could be connected to my system when I wanted to Tidal. Would just take a second to switch out. Just thinkin.
     
  16. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    Why would the Modi Multibit be changing the sound? Different masterings or the computer OS settings are far more likely culprits.
     
  17. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    I remembered trying Windows 10 beta, but I couldn't get a bit-perfect output from Tidal back then. It would always clip the output just barely below 0dbfs for some reason. I think it was audible, but maybe I was just imagining things. There was no difference on songs that didn't have clipping, which sadly aren't that many today. I don't think the Windows 10 release changed anything and I think Windows 10 uses the exact same audio stuff as Windows 8, but not Windows 7.
    You should have the output set to exclusive mode and have "force volume" enabled. The files Tidal has are 16/44.1 and you can get it to output "bit-perfectly". I will try to see if I can hear a difference between a song played back on Tidal vs my CD rips played back with foobar vs a file that I recorded from Tidal played back with foobar later tonight. If anything I think the Tidal software sounds worse than foobar, but the actual files are the exact same ones as on the CD, given the same mastering.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  18. Big D Design

    Big D Design RIP 2021

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    @Serious
    Wow. That would tell a story.

    "You should have the output set to exclusive mode and have "force volume" enabled"

    Where is this setting?
     
  19. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    Yep, you're absolutely right. After a week or so of neither track playing in anything (including their own web player and client), they're both working. It's a bit odd.

    ..aaand that's part of why I will probably cancel before my 30 day trial is up. Actually, in some cases, track names actually reflect being a more modern remaster, with crushed dynamics and often a somewhat V-shaped EQ. I find that if it's an album that I have on CD, I usually end up playing that instead, in a lot of cases.

    It's a shame, lossless streaming is a good thing. Lossless streaming of inferior content is a bit frustrating.

    There's a lot of chatter on the Interwebs that the Tidal client sounds worse than even just using the web player in Chrome, oddly. I haven't really verified that for myself, as I preferred to use shenanigans and the device of my choice as a controller, to stream tidal directly to my little network renderer- the audio arrives there unmolested as FLAC, using the same decoder as everything else.
     
  20. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    This is one of the reasons I like Roon (there are many); it integrates both my local (CD-rips, needle drops, Redbook-and-better downloads) and TIDAL libraries in a manner where playing what I consider to be the better version is trivial.

    In terms of TIDAL and overall quality ... in general I like it better than the other streaming options. But it's more there for discovery, sampling new albums/artisits and so that I can keep a large library of music available regardless of where I am without having to maintain multiple copies of it.
     

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