Topping and SMSL with ASR Punking Us on DACs?

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by purr1n, Oct 23, 2022.

  1. Grattle

    Grattle Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,002
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA
  2. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2020
    Likes Received:
    1,418
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Atl
    Maybe they should make a Heresy version. That's the one that's gone through QC.
     
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 2
    • List
  3. Maximillion

    Maximillion Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2018
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Warwickshire
    I do think there is too much of a push for Topping and SMSL.
    What I don't get is that if every DAC did sound the same , what's the point of measuring any of them?
    Surely you only need a picture, features and a price list. Does it look nice, how much is it, what inputs and outputs does it have?

    I bought a Topping D50 DAC for an upstairs room.
    This is what the screen looks like now.

    [​IMG]

    Suffice to say I am not buying another, whether it sounds the same as my Gungnir Multibit or not (it doesn't).
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2022
  4. Baten

    Baten Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2018
    Likes Received:
    1,130
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    EU
    The Topping D50 (not D50s) was truly the worst sounding thing I've had the displeasure of using. It must have some sort of broken design. The Aune X8 DAC I replaced it with sounds just fine and it's based on the same chip for crying out loud.
    /end rant
     
  5. Entropy

    Entropy Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2022
    Likes Received:
    166
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Location:
    Portland OR
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2022
  6. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2020
    Likes Received:
    1,418
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Atl
    After all these years I'm still trying to wrap my mind around a deaf guy running one of the most popular audio forums. The "science" is just icing on the cake.
     
  7. Case

    Case Anxious Head (Formerly Wilson)

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2016
    Likes Received:
    6,040
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Ohio, USA. Home of the eclipse
    A month's worth @atomicbob 's profile posts will teach you more than that whole godamn site.
     
    • Like Like x 10
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 4
    • List
  8. dericchan1

    dericchan1 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2021
    Likes Received:
    103
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Canada
    https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru ... ney.36833/

    I came across this discussion on ASR and finding this a very fascinating read especially Thorsten Loesch was involved in the discussion. I thought I would share with everyone here.

    I am not going to state my opinion on Thorsten Loesch's comments though I am a big fan of the ifi gear in general.

    As the title suggested, business as usual, the thread started out with 100% of the members discrediting the IFI Zen one signature dac as a waste of money, does not measure well compared to cheaper dacs from Chinese manufacturers until Thor came on, describing the design/technical aspect of the Zen one signature dac using some of the cheaper parts and he also would not be inclined to purchase it. He did disclose that he had split with IFI in 2019 and this Zen One Signature was not his design.

    But what I find truly fascinating was his later comment on his ifi dac design, that the focus was never about scoring for SOTA measurement as long as the noise and harmonic distortion level are objectively well enough, but more on the matter of musicality, emotional response. He then went on to talk about ABX, objective measurements do not reliably equals better sound (admittedly all ifi products he designed will measure poorly on ASR standards)
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
    • Epic Epic x 1
    • List
  9. ilikebananafudge_

    ilikebananafudge_ Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2021
    Likes Received:
    997
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Damn, I just bought a Zen One Signature and his comments are triggering my audio nervosa. It's hard to tell how seriously to take his comments since it seems like he hasn't heard it and is making judgements based off of the circuit board. But it sounds like he knows what he's talking about. Maybe I should return it once I get it and buy the Zen DAC V2 since that's presumably closer to the Zen DAC (OG) that he designed. Argh.
     
  10. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2017
    Likes Received:
    10,961
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Philippines, The
    Might be best to let it sit with you for a bit so you get to know it better before making any final decisions. I'm aware that nervosa is, unfortunately, a great part of this hobby, but provided something sounds good to you (i.e. follows your personal preferences) and it isn't egregiously overpriced relative to how close other things get TO that specific sound, all's well in the world.

    I've often said that I like iFi gear, but with how many releases they've had it's hard to keep saying that as a running axiom given how running changes to lines may inevitably push it further away from what I appreciated about their voicing of previous releases. Wonder what's changed with the newer kids.
     
  11. dericchan1

    dericchan1 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2021
    Likes Received:
    103
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Canada
    Too bad I am not a registered member on ASR, I would have reached out to Thor and asked him his views on the IFI Pro IDSD which he designed and the IFI NEO IDSD that is after his time but had a lot of things tickled down from the Pro.

    I happen to own both the NEO and the Pro. lol
     
  12. ilikebananafudge_

    ilikebananafudge_ Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2021
    Likes Received:
    997
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Yeah, that's probably a good idea. But it's still en route, and I'm just thinking that it will be easier to return it if I haven't opened it yet.

    Also, I looked at more of Thor's posts on ASR, and found this thread where he talks about his design for the Zen CAN, in which he specified a 4A power supply but the product ended up getting shipped with a 2.4A power supply. Interesting.
     
  13. scblock

    scblock Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2019
    Likes Received:
    1,419
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Denver
    This kind of nervosa helps no-one, especially not you.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 2
    • List
  14. ilikebananafudge_

    ilikebananafudge_ Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2021
    Likes Received:
    997
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Oof, yeah you're right. I need to step away for a while and think about other things.
     
  15. Tekker

    Tekker Facebook Friend

    Banned
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2020
    Likes Received:
    133
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Getting advice on gear based on ASR’s reccomendations, is like getting prescription glasses based on the outcome of the auto refractor only.

    When you don’t see well with the new glasses after you get them, the optician will tell you “you need to get used to it for a few weeks max”. When you still can’t get used it after a few weeks, the optician will tell you that you’re imagining it that you don’t see well with the new glasses, since the glasses are based off objective measurements.

    The optician being Amir in this case.
     
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Exactly, after a certain point, measurements do not matter. What ASR is doing is measurements for the sake of measurements.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
  17. dericchan1

    dericchan1 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2021
    Likes Received:
    103
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Canada
  18. ilikebananafudge_

    ilikebananafudge_ Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2021
    Likes Received:
    997
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Thanks y'all (@Lyander and @scblock, in particular) for helping me with my audio nervosa. I went over to a friend's place with my fiancee and had dinner and it helped clear my mind.

    It strikes me that I don't know anything about Thor, the former iFi engineer. Maybe he had a personal dispute with his boss and that's why he left the company and he still feels negative about iFi and that colors his perception. Or perhaps the design choices that he highlighted will add unnecessary distortion, but I'll still like the DAC anyway. Or maybe he's right and the new iFi products are slightly worse clones than the products that he designed. Who knows. I don't know this person, I don't know the context, I don't know how to design or understand a DAC circuit, and I don't know how the Zen One Signature sounds without hearing it, so it's best not to draw any conclusions based on one person's opinion on the internet.

    This certainly isn't the most ground-breaking post ever, but these thoughts have helped me recover from my nervosa, and I thought that I'd share them in case they help someone else who may have caught it from me.

    As @Lyander suggested, I think I'll just listen to the Zen One Sig for a while, compare it to my Modi 2 Uber and Modius and see what I think. I'll report back in a few weeks with what I find.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2022
  19. dericchan1

    dericchan1 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2021
    Likes Received:
    103
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Canada
    @ilikebananafudge_ and hey buddy, it could also be Thor, as the former chief designer, simply prefers his own design approach better - much like fashion designer who prefers his/her previous design over the current season stuff. Who knows, who cares!!!

    When I bought my NEO, people were saying to me why bother, you could get a Topping/SMSL that measures much better and much cheaper as well!!! I just laughed off and commented "No Topping/SMSL for me even for free - period!!"

    Some people don't realize it, I have more concern about electronic device explode and my house burnt down than cheaping out on a few bucks honestly., And I have a lovely wife and two toddlers at home
     
  20. Baten

    Baten Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2018
    Likes Received:
    1,130
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    EU
    I have a bunch of DMs of Thor on head-fi, from this little group chat where he discussed the iFi micro BL and its successors..

    I did not work on the "Signature", though I designed the unit is based on, the iDSD micro & Black Label. I actually designed all ifi & AMR products up to the current Zen range and part of the Neo & Red Label (aka diablo) but had nothing to do with the "signature" and any further products that will be released are also not mine.

    In order to work, S-Balanced needs a 4-Pole socket. Those do not exist for 6.3mm - so there is no way to have an "S-Balanced" 6.3mm socket.

    The 4.4mm system has 5poles, L+/L-/R+/R- & GND. One can of course wire such a socket in "S-Balanced" style, but there is no advantage in doing so, as if there were unbalanced wired headphones on 4.4mm they would use L+/R+/GND and not cause incompatibility.

    So in the "Signature" there is no point of using the "S-Balanced" label. Clearly someone who did not understand what it means just threw it into the marketing stuff, to pretend that what is being done is something cool and not just "fake balanced". The "diablo" is "real balanced".

    In my view both products are outdated and overpriced should not have been released, nor should the Neo have been released at 700 USD (it was designed for a price-point of half that) without upgrading the Headphone amplifier, which could have been done easily. But no-one asked.

    What ifi should have done is to combine the balanced circuitry from the "Red Label" (originally intended to be chinese market only model) with the features from the Black Label and or xDSD, incorporate the volume control from the xDSD and the "Cyberdrive" controls, which would have eliminated channel balance issues and also eliminated the power mode switch (these would be set simply by turning volume up).

    Thor
    I suspect that since my departure "ifi" does not even know what up/oversampling is except knowing that it's a "bad thing" and will keep repeating "burr brown bitperfect" like a broken record.

    The DAC Chip itself can be used with internal oversampling up to 192kHz input, higher sample rates are reproduced without oversampling in the DAC, lower sample rates too can be produced without oversampling (bitperfect).

    I was not involved in the replacement of the old 8-Core XMOS with the newer generation 16-Core XMOS, or the MQA integration or indeed the rest of the device firmware for Neo, Sig and Diablo, so it's anyone's guess. The only reason for changes to the new 16-Core XMOS were that it actually costs less than 70% of the old 8-Core unit and that old 8-Core unit is now near obsolete and has long lead times, if not they would have shipped with 8-Core XMOS.

    Its interface to the device in Sig & Diablo is still the old PCIe socket harking back to the original nano likely with unchanged pinout. What is in the XMOS and what on the DAC side in firmware is the question.

    The Diablo has an interesting history. In 2017 the then china sales manager claimed he could not sell it in china because "chinese audiophiles hate effect switches" and "the switches cause the sound to be not 'high resolution'". I called bull on this, but agreed to "retune" the black label towards the stated requirements.

    First, all my products focus on audio quality. Features considered useful are added in ways that do not compromise the core performance. I do not see adding bluetooth, spatial and frequency response correcting circuitry as "incompatible" with sound quality...

    We took a Black Label and stripped out all switches except power mode (the rest was hard tied in "off") leaving the actual electronic switching and function mostly in place and moved the Power Mode switch to the front. Then I changed the headphone amp to a dual loop (THX like) configuration. A new 3d printed front panel was made and being a little cynical I suggested to paint the thing red, a colour that has good co-notations with chinese.

    This was pronounced a "great product" by the china salesman, so the modified design was put to PCB and a few real prototypes were made. After the chinese sales guy was fired when it turned out much of his reported sales were fake the whole thing was shelved and never moved to production readiness. Shortly after I handed in my notice this was dusted off and I was asked to complete it but "balanced".

    So it was progressed with a new balanced amp, but not completed to production readiness before I left. There were working prototypes though. So the Diablo is a Black Label with a lot of switches stripped out (most of which have no sonic impact as they connect to the central MCU), a single-ended input balanced output headphone amp using double-loop amplifier, instead of the original "split" design with the TPA6120 being a unity gain buffer after an OPA16XX gainstage.

    Almost all parts of Diablo, Signature and Black Label go back to the original 2014 iDSDF micro verbatim.

    Thor
     
    • Like Like x 8
    • Epic Epic x 1
    • List
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2022

Share This Page