Topping DACs?

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by etane, May 6, 2020.

  1. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

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    How. Can. This. Be ?!

    This is something even beyond my weirdest expectations from topping. I mean i am literally confused with this situation (not the video but the results) and trying to make sense of this (although i can imagine i won't be successful).

    I have enjoyed @bboris77 turning some heads around with the previous situation(s).
     
  2. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    And the question is which manufacturers? Because now I have no confidence in any product that supports MQA. They all may be doing the same. Is there any way for an average user to check if the filter in use is not MQA upsampling filter?
     
  3. GoldenOne

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    So far I've confirmed that at least some products from Topping, Ifi and Hiby are doing this but that's just based on what I've had here.

    It seems that some ESS dacs get around this but AKM/BB products are more likely to have the 'mqa all the time' thing
     
  4. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Can you contribute to a list? A "MQA filtering wall of shame" thread seems to be necessary.
     
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  5. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Which iFi ones have you found exhibit this behaviour? I've had good experiences with their gear before but while I'm inured to the marketing this is enough to turn me off it.

    EDIT: sniped by @crenca, but yet all models so far that obfuscate things from consumers ought to be known.
     
  6. GoldenOne

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    The ifi ones you can sooort of disable it.

    Their 'GTO' filter is just the MQA renderer rebranded. Some of their products allow you to firmware swap to a non-GTO filter variant and get around it that way, but some like the neo iDSD you're stuck with GTO/MQA (unless they've added a firmware option now, they didn't have one when I checked).

    And yeah it's disappointing.
    Ifi makes some awesome products. I use their ipower and stuff like the iGalvanic pretty extensively, and I like the iDSD signature etc a lot. But it is a shame to see MQA souring things
     
  7. GoldenOne

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    So far:

    - Hiby DAPs with the recent MQA update
    - Ifi products with GTO firmware
    - Topping d90 MQA (I would presume any other topping AKM based product with MQA functionality but that is just an assumption)

    Anyone can check their own products if they wish. Simply play a white noise file and record the output at 192khz in any semi-decent ADC. (Room-EQ Wizard has a super easy to use FFT) You'll see the fairly distinctive attenuation pattern if it has the same issue
     
  8. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    MQA sucks fetid shark fins.

    Though I don't consider myself as astute a listener as many on here this makes sense for how I much preferred the Bit Perfect filter on the original silver Micro iDSD to the GTO filter update, there was just a bit less definition to the headstage and things sounded weird.

    neo iDSD removed from consideration then, as are any of the Gibbs-DiNozzo filtered options.
     
  9. Beefy

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    I'm so glad we have a few solid NOPES on MQA from vendors that make really well regarded products, namely @schiit and @soekris, and surely many others.

    Keep up the good fight!
     
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  10. GoldenOne

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    On the iDSD products that have a 'bit perfect' option and some other burr brown based products such as the teac UD501 (which is awful but anyway), that filter is effectively a 'semi-NOS'

    The top 6 bits are done discretely with no OS and the lower 10/18 are done via normal delta sigma. Little unclear on exactly what changes with the delta sigma part as feeding 44.1khz vs zero-order-hold 768khz stuff does produce a different result.

    Interesting option to have though, definitely nice to have for certain genres

    44.1khz 1khz sine into iDSD signature 'bitperfect':

    upload_2021-6-29_21-4-50.png

    44.1khz upsampled using Zero-order-hold to 768khz then fed to iDSD signature in bit-perfect:
    upload_2021-6-29_21-10-46.png

    Can see the latter is a fair bit cleaner.
    Modulator running at different speeds dependent on incoming sample rate maybe?
     
  11. Biodegraded

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    With Ifi stuff, any models that have a filter switch (eg the various iDSDs) should have a filter choice other than GTO/MQA; and many can be restored to previous gen (pre-GTO) firmware too.

    Edit: Although Ifi's documentation says GTO replaces the 'minimum phase' ('Listen') filter (about which their terminology has been confusing), possibly the filter firmware would have to be the pre-GTO version or both switches would be GTO: see @Baten 's post below.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2021
  12. Baten

    Baten Friend

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    I believe when you're on MQA firmware, all filters are GTO and the options no longer do anything. Yep, seriously.
     
  13. Biodegraded

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    That would be disappointing. I'll see if I can check with my unit (currently on old pre-MQA filters) and have edited my post in the meantime.

    It'd be nice if @iFi audio could clarify.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2021
  14. Marvey

    Marvey Super Friend

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    This is sad.
     
  15. Elnrik

    Elnrik Super Friendly

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    I too would like iFi to clarify how far down the MQA shaft they've gone. It seems well past the tip. Although they don't seem to be gagging on it and making their mascara run like Topping has.

    Moot, either way. I'll stick with manufacturers who told Bob to go find someone else to slobber on his dingle berries.
     
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  16. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    I also refuse to purchase any product that lists MQA compatibility as a “feature”.
     
  17. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    I don't know, iFi was if not an early adopter, certainly an MQA "first waver". End users have had to avoid their latest firmware for 2 or 3 years now if they want to avoid high IMD, out-of-phase MQA fuckery. Topping seems to be simply riding the ESS checkbox wave. I even suspect that the D90 is supposed to be be allowing the consumer to properly select on board ESS filter selections (which include non-MQA filters), but Toppings usual low QC has again let them down.

    edit: I just visited iFi download site because I wanted to confirm the dates of the firmwares, I'm thinking iFi has been pushing MQA for even longer than 3 years. However they are now collecting serial numbers before allowing owners to see/download firmware, and my Micro iDAC2 serial does not start with "20220" as they insist - rather it begins with "MIDC..." Yet another broken data collection effort. Might be time to chuck my Micro iDAC2 and Nano in the trash. Anycase, perhaps someone else can confirm the dates of the firmware(s)...
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2021
  18. GoldenOne

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    The D90SE with the ess chip does work fine with filter selections.

    The d90 mqa (non-se) which is akm does not
     
  19. GoldenOne

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    Well someone did post on asr asking John yang about this. Aaaaand the post got deleted.

    Interesting....

    I guess science progresses by silencing people who ask questions you don't want to answer
     
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  20. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I'm pretty sure all the pro manufacturers have noped out of MQA.

    On the audiophile side, I know Bryston has said no as well.
     

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