Tube Vs. Solid State

Discussion in 'Power Amps' started by shaizada, Nov 23, 2016.

  1. Mr Underhill

    Mr Underhill New

    Joined:
    May 22, 2017
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    London
    I had an interesting day on Monday. I visited a friend to listen to his 'upgraded' LP12, the Stiletto:

    http://www.tangerineaudio.com/products.html

    My friends system has Naim 282/250 Olive amps into Focal Chorus 716W (I think). We then walked round the corner to a friend of his who runs a CD front end into Naim 552DR/555DR > 300DR > Focal 1028be II.

    I then returned hom to listen to my system: Sources > EAR868PL > EAR534 > Focal 1008be II, supported by a sub.

    There is no doubt that their systems did some things better, especially with rock music which we majored on. The speakers were, obviously, moving more air. I would say that both systems were more extended top & bottom and had real balls that was exciting to listen to, and no lack of detail.

    My system is no slouch with rock, although I tend to listen to music at somewhat lower volumes which will have an effect. What I feel my system does better is allowing you to listen into the music, whether that is soundstaging depends on the recording. The Naim systems presented a bit more of a wall of music. Also some music through my friends system can sound hard/sharp wrt treble - something that I have heard many times with Naim/Linn systems. Overall, I think my system doesn't bludgen you but persuades - but I do enjoy a bit of bludgeoning e.g. Thin Lizzy.

    Tim de Paravincini will tell you that he can build amps & phono stages using either valves or electronics and they will sound the same. Certainly I find his amps persuasive, but then many will tell you that they are not 'proper' valve amps, sound too solid state for some.

    M
     
  2. TomHP

    TomHP Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2016
    Likes Received:
    153
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Taiwan
    Here's a thought: if you compress a sound with a tail (i.e. reverb), the tail also becomes more prominent/noticeable. Don't tube amp with higher H2/H3 inherently add a level of compression to the sound? I seemed to remember tube circuits have an S-shaped transfer function, basically compressing high levels relative to low levels and introducing the distortion as a result of that. Not sure how that translate to actual amplifier designs based around tubes.

    (disclaimer: my knowledge of tube amps is extremely limited, but I am much more at east with signal processing)
     
  3. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2016
    Likes Received:
    6,941
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Maybe. Are you talking about dynamic compression? In what domain? Try to be specific.
    Are you talking about measured distortion or suggesting such compression leads to audible 'distortion' that is more pleasing to the ear? I'm not an engineer and I can't provide you with a scientific answer. If you read back just 1-2 pages in this same thread you will see someone else suggested something very similar and got shot down. It's a common fallacy to assume tube circuits are deemed superior by some due to anything they 'add' to the sound; it's more a case of what isn't taken away (that is by solid-state).
     
  4. TomHP

    TomHP Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2016
    Likes Received:
    153
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Taiwan
    Yes, sorry if I wasn't clear, I'm talking about dynamic compression.

    Now, as I said, I'm not very familiar with tube amps, but if there is a relationship between input and output that is S-shaped, there will be dynamic compression and distortion generated. My (most likely silly) idea was that dynamic compression of music brings forward the ambience as tails get more emphasized relative to peaks in the signal.
     
  5. JeffYoung

    JeffYoung Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2017
    Likes Received:
    714
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Ireland
    Tubes certainly exhibit dynamic compression when they're over-driven. This is likely the source of the "tube watts are better than SS watts" meme, as an over-driven tube still sound OK, while a clipping SS amp sounds absolutely dire.

    Whether they exhibit that same behaviour to a lesser extent when not over-driven, I couldn't say. The idea of over-emphasized tails is certainly interesting....
     
  6. TomHP

    TomHP Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2016
    Likes Received:
    153
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Taiwan
    Just to illustrate my thoughts more clearly, but mostly because it's a slow day at work, some quick Matlab doodles below.

    [​IMG]

    This is an exaggerated example of an S-curve function. I used tanh(x) function. I used this same function once (not very successfully) in a tube emulation project after seeing it being used in a tube VST.

    When you use this function to shape a wave file, you get this:

    [​IMG]

    RED = original tom sound wave file
    BLUE = tom sound wave file after wave shaping

    Both files were normalized to be same max amplitude. So you can see the S-shaper enhances the "tail" of the sound.

    What does the spectrum look like of this S-shape function?

    [​IMG]

    Spectrum of a 1kHz sine wave put through the same function. Odd harmonics clearly visible.

    Again, I'm not saying this is the answer to the "ambience more audible with tubes" question, but if there is dynamic range compression with tubes there will be (1) more distortion and (2) tails will be more pronounced.
     
  7. Forza AudioWorks

    Forza AudioWorks MOT: Forza AudioWorks

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2017
    Likes Received:
    384
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Poland
    I have nothing against valve amp that is of SS characteristic soundwise. It depends on speakers if someone asks me. I wouldn't pair thick sounding speakers with a typical valve deck, at least in most cases it didn't work.
     
  8. bags

    bags New

    Banned
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Lowell, MA
    Tubes are viable for small signals - pre-amps, DAC's, headphone amps. Now antique stuff like the ARC SP-15 used to make me stay up way too late at night....

    But I've had Dyna Mk VI, C-J's, Futtermans, class A small watt amps in my various systems, and just couldn't get used to the Mushy, murky bass, and how it didn't match what was above . IMO you have to do mental gymnastics to make yourself accept it, the walrus like mid bass. And I'm talking big buck stuff too. Noisy too and retubing? Yeowch!

    SS baby, but not any SS. Nelson Pass amps. Not Krell (except the first 3), not Classe, not Hafler, not Class D, nope. Budget? See Schiit. Ragnarok is a masterpiece. Only amps in their time that made me happy because they were detailed, but smooth - Pass. I had a Stasis 3 from 1981-early 00's, then a X-150, nothing and nobody (except Pass's First Watt confections can or have broken me of Pass). The rag is for headphones, and downsizing equipment haul.
     
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Some of you guys should pull up datasheets of commonly used transistors in audio amplifiers and look up the gain curves.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Push pull fixed bias or designs with feedback. Still won't be anything like AHB2 or Vidar in grip, but certainly better than the stuff you may have heard. Megabucks won't make bass better. Designs to address it will make it better (and some things worse - it's all a compromise)
     
  11. bags

    bags New

    Banned
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Lowell, MA
    I knew a guy that had some way of introducing even order harmonics into a system via a box with a rotary switch. Tube heads would sniff about the SS amp being played (make a fake blind hocus pocus change of the amp, turn up the even order harmonics and the tube guys were on board - "oh this is much better, really rich and warm".

    There are a ton of bad sounding SS amps (most recs, integrated amps, early Dynas, any Tiger, most Adcoms, etc.) but Class A SS (part of the way) amps such as the Pass X series give you delicacy, neutrality, holistic from top to bottom, and power reserves that in my rather vast experience no tube amp can touch - ever.

    I don't care to argue, I've been at this since I was 7 when I was first brought to the BSO, and 9 when my father bought a pair of Quad ESL 57's.

    Interesting to know where the cable freaks break down on this divide.

    I like OFC copper and ASC traps, but get a massive laugh off of people that pay $5k for a 5 ft power cable but have a house full of tarnished bare cooper wire, outlets wired wrong, and only 114 VAC coming into the home.

    Again, I really like tubes in many small signal applications. The Freya with the right pair of NOS tubes sings - but it's mostly SS - let's face it.

    The DAC I like - the 'Gungnir Multibit' doesn't need tubes because it's correct in terms of phase and tonality. But lots of them do, not because tubes 'fix' incorrect phase, but because it's a dose of syrup to make the bad medicine go down easier. I like to listen into the music so I don't care for atonality, but I like to be told the truth, and tubes lie way more than proper SS circuits - in particular amps and large tubes. It's axiomatic.
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Don't you think it depends on application, that is transducers?

    Not all tube designs have massive second order distortion if they are not being overdriven. Not all people run 89db mediocre or worse efficiency speakers. The notion that audible levels of second order sounds good is bullshit. It sounds like ass. It's just that higher odd order sounds worse.

    Yes, bass is a problem with no feedback designs and transformers wreak havoc on bass distortion as signal rises.

    Pass stuff is good. The vintage Japanese class A hand picked on a CRT curve tracer bipolar transistor stuff sounds better.


    I was directly instructed by Qui-Gonn Jinn in the tenets of audio when I was in the womb. My appeal to authority exceeds yours.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
  13. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    14,051
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Glad to know you've been an ignoramus for 53 years. Don't know why that's relevant here, though.
     
  14. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,659
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Northern Californium Valley
    We need to a add laugh button. A like just wasn't right for your post bro. :bow:
     
  15. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    8,200
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Northwest France
    You can have the best of both worlds with bi-amping. Use tubes for the tweeter-mid section and high power SS for the bass section. Transformers perform best at higher frequencies and relieving them of bass duties reduces distortion.
     
  16. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,750
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Home Page:
    I'm really enjoying my XA30.5 but this piqued my curiosity. Which Pass stuff have you heard and which Jap Class A? I honestly only know of the (now) infamous M-22 et al. Some of that old stuff seems pretty sweet if I can figure out how to service it myself.
     
  17. bags

    bags New

    Banned
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Lowell, MA
    Wow, self acknowledgement, what growth....
     
  18. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    8,200
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Northwest France
    I’m glad this monster is banned
     
  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Classic DIY stuff like F5, Zen, older Aleph, and most recently one of those class AB blocks, the X600 or something.

    I collecting some golden age Japanese stuff right now but keeping quiet seeing what's happened to the M-22. In time. It doesn't have to be class A. Highly biased into class A is good too like the Pioneer M-25.
     
  20. Thenewerguy009

    Thenewerguy009 Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    Likes Received:
    385
    Trophy Points:
    63
    So it's not Accuphase, seeing as their value has never dropped off.
     

Share This Page