Yggdrasil vs PS Audio DirectStream Jr.

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by msommers, Sep 16, 2017.

  1. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,750
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Home Page:
    The DSJr. has been in my system since the end of April and in that time I've been fortunate to play with a couple other dacs, most recently a Yggdrasil. Schiit's flagship has always been on my radar but for some reason I've never had much of a push to get one despite having a Modi Multibit, Bifrost Multibit and Gungnir Multibit at one point or another. Below are some preliminary findings between the two units after approx. three days using an A/B switch in my headphone and stereo setup:

    Functionality:
    There is no contest when comparing these two units. In the DSJr. you have:
    - Firmware upgradeable - I've already experienced this once going from Torreys to Huron. Floor noise was greatly reduced and microdetails are significantly improved.
    - Hardware upgradable - Here is equal as both units can be upgraded. The Yggdrasil got a new USB module and the DSJr. will get a new Bridge (or ethernet input) module to accommodate their new "Roon-Like" software coming at some point called Octave.
    - Streaming functionality - A high quality streamer (much better than HifiBerry Pi3 doing A/B comparisons) is built-in which means that I don't need another box, to get a linear power supply or added cables. Moreover, this streamer is a Roon endpoint, native DSD64 input, DLNA renderer and MQA compatible. A later Bridge upgrade will allow full unfolds of MQA via Bridge using Roon and Tidal integration. I'm not here to discuss whether these are advantageous for everyone, but they are features that the DSJr. has and the Yggdrasil does not (nor ever will for various reasons).
    - Built-in bit-perfect preamp that can be controlled via the on-unit knob or remote (tablet or computer as well if using Bridge input).
    - The Yggdrasil has a ground loop or digital static* that I can't seem to shake however the DSJr. has never had such issues despite being plugged in the exact same way in terms of power, cables, and inputs.

    Build Quality:
    There is not much to discuss here as they're both excellent. The Yggdrasil is smaller length x width but about an inch or so higher. Both of these units are relatively heavy and extremely well made** (see below).

    Support:
    Here is where the (**) comes into play. As a resident of Canada, I bought my DSJr. new from an online dealer. Upon arrival, the Bridge unit was staticky and not playing as advertised. PSA on-phone support was helpful and understanding. After realizing that there was a hardware issue, I contacted the Canadian distributor who got a new unit sent out from Boulder, CO the same day along with a shipping label to send my unit down there, and assured me everything else is taken care of. Personally, I view this customer service as good as it gets for online dealings. The Bridge module in these seem overall fairly robust but on PSA's forum, it does come up occasionally if you search. It's not a common problem and shit happens sometimes. Since receiving the new unit after waiting ~4 days, it's been rock solid.

    I can't speak to Schiit's warranty dealings and what would be involved as a Canadian. Since I don't know, I won't speculate but will likely update once I talk to them about the (*) point above, and likely send it down for the Gen5 install and warranty update.

    Sound:
    If all you care about is the D-to-A conversion, I'll make it short: The Yggdrasil does a better job on most things, if your listening preferences align with it. I'll keep my impressions short as @Torq has discussed these two units previously and likely better than I. My impressions below are not based off of his at all, though full disclosure we did discuss things before I bought the DSJr. in April.

    The Yggdrasil is substantially more forward sounding than DSJr. I never viewed the DSJr. as laid-back but in direct comparison it's easy to distinguish the differences.

    The Yggdrasil soundstage is about 0.5 ft outside my speakers whereas DSJr.'s soundstage is right at the speakers (which are ~7 ft apart). The Yggdrasil sounds like it reaches further back as some songs I find it easier to distinguish instrument distances (Front to Back) and also side-to-side. Overall, this "layering" and orientation of sound was quite noticeable and favoured the Yggdrasil. Honestly I found it quite fun and added to the listening experience.

    The Yggdrasil is more bass prominent than DSJr. and slightly feels more impactful. Both units reach down to LFs very, very well.

    The Yggdrasil sounds much more crispy in the highs. At first, I couldn't believe what I was missing as decays lasted longer, when vocalists ended their words the "sshhhaa" was much more prominent and string texture is slightly more apparent. But it didn't take long to realize this is where my preferences do not lie as I find it gets fatiguing and too focusing. Here I'm torn as my brain would rather have a source that represents all the data and roll-off elsewhere down the chain. But in my current system to my ears and emotional side, I almost find it distracting to the point of being artificially-accentuated.

    The mids are very, very close between these two and honestly couldn't reliably tell between the two units which was which. This may be a fault of my own but it is what it is.

    The blackground is noticeably better on DSJr. than Yggdrasil which sounds sort of grey/digital in comparison.

    Conclusion:
    The Yggdrasil retails for ~$3,100 CAD whereas the DSJr. is $5,299 with some room to wiggle (as all dealers can do). $2,000 Canuck bucks can buy you a damn good streaming device, power supply and cables if you want them, but do you want them or would you prefer a one-box solution? I really enjoy the functionality, firmware upgrades and support I've received from PSA and also avoiding any US-CAD shipping hassles that could come up dealing with Schiit. The DSJr. can handle many formats of music and inputs better than Schiit but overall I find the Yggdrasil is more 'In your face" with detail that could complicate listening preferences or balance laid-back systems. Once an order of various Mullard tubes arrives, I'm going to incorporate my preamp and see what can be done.

    As an owner of both, which will I keep? At this point it's too early to say. Initially I want to get rid of the DSJr. but I think of the hassle of finding another streamer, being able to play DSD or try MQA, this ground loop issue, and any installation/warranty dealings are probably harder to deal with. The overall user experience and functionality is much better with DSJr. but the trade-off is a slight difference in overall sound quality.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
  2. Ferrum

    Ferrum Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2015
    Likes Received:
    59
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Sweden
    Thanks for the write up. As a owner of the DSjr I can only say that its still a very satisfying listening all day long. Resolved, free of any grey or haze like sound, distortion free with a very look into every music style.

    cheers
    Ferrum
     
  3. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,750
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Home Page:
    You're welcome, Ferrum. What gear do you use with your DSJr?
     
  4. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,750
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Home Page:
    I've noticed a significant decrease in the ground loop(?) issue using balanced connects from Yggdrasil->Amp. It's still present when the volume is cranked but at normal listening volumes, I cannot detect it. Single-ended it's still quite apparent in quiet passages and when nothing is being played.

    DAC comparisons were done two ways to ensure it was consistent:

    On my desktop computer I used my Lynx AES16 (old PCI version, not express) with AES outputs to both dacs via breakout cable. Here I can group zones in Roon and very easily switch back and forth as the song is playing perfectly in time on both channels. Here I used a Jotunheim and TH600, and single-ended connections throughout (to accommodate my switching device).

    For the stereo setup, I have Totem Arros and a Pass Labs XA30.5 power amp, again single-ended connections throughout. I used JRiver 22 on my laptop and also grouped the zones I created for each to ensure playback was continuous. Here, I took the USB 2.0 outputs on my laptop into each USB input on both dacs.

    The mention of Pi3 and Bridge II was to highlight how good the streaming device in the DSJr. is! Beyond this comparison, which was done just changing inputs on DSJr., it was not used in the dac comparisons. Again, the sound quality differences between these two devices were staggering.

    SE cables throughout were Morrow Audio MA1. Switching device was MapleTree Audio LR-1 Router (switch).

    One thing I forgot mention previously is that the Yggdrasil was ~3.7db louder than the DSJr. and the only way to level match for my setup was via Roon or JRiver using software EQ.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
  5. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,750
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Home Page:
    Small update to this. I've been trying to get ahold of Schiit to see if they could assist with the unusual noise from SE outputs to both the info and tech addresses with no answer for a week. I stated the unit was used so that probably is why no reply - no warranty anyways. I've emailed them with questions about orders and other tech questions before when buying new gear so that's probably why.

    Something to keep in mind for future second-hand buyers.
     
  6. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    9,937
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Texas and California
    Home Page:
    If we haven't answered on the same day (and it's not a weekend), we didn't get the email.

    Of course second-hand products have full support. It's just that warranty is for the original owner only.
     
  7. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,750
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Home Page:
    Thank you, Jason. I'm not sure how that could have happened but I will try once more come Monday.
     
  8. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Likes Received:
    7,735
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Canada
    Hey @msommers (or anyone else watching the thread), I was contemplating bringing in DSJ to compare with my MicroRendu/Saga/Gungnir Multibit (feeding a single Vidar and ATC SCM19s) - the differences may be very similar to your comparison vs. Yggdrasil, but wondering if you've done any more comparisons, or if anyone else has compared similarly?
     
  9. MyPetSasquatch

    MyPetSasquatch Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Likes Received:
    347
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Sasquatch Country
    @msommers Any chance you've tried the latest firmware, Huron?
     
  10. skem

    skem Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,911
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Charles River
    FWIW, I have compared Yggdrasil to PS Audio DirectStream original-- not the DS Jr, and can share thoughts on Huron. I would presume that the decoding electronics in both DirectStreams are very nearly the same -- although the Junior does have different firmware and different boards in it, so I could be wrong. Take these comments for what they're worth -- YMMV

    I tried the Yggdrasil in Nov. 2015 and found it to be among the better DACs I had tried, but instruments did not have the timbre/realism I wanted. To my ear, the DirectStream sounded significantly more realistic. The difference was immediately obvious, so I packed up the Yggdrasil and sent it back after about two days. A shame, because I hate the way the DirectStream looks, whereas I love the way the Yggdrasil looks.

    That said, while DirectStream has held top rank in my stack with respect to realism, it always began to fatigue me after about an hour or so. I am atypically sensitive to some kind of hard-to-describe high-frequency character that makes many DACs fatiguing for me. Sigma-delta DACs are the worst offenders in my experience, and while the DirectStream was MUCH better than most, it was still not perfect. As a result, my default DAC for long sessions or background listening has been the NAD M51, which is exceedingly laid back, yet still has very good timbre. I can't quite remember why the NAD won out over the Yggdrasil as well. Either it was better than the Yggdrasil in terms of timbre or realism, or in some way the Yggdrasil was just too much of a compromise on all fronts: not as good as the DirectStream yet still mildly fatiguing. I remember a friend of mine feeling the Yggdrasil and M51 were similar. I just called him and asked him if he remembered our testing session, and he said he remembers the Yggdrasil being "lifeless".

    The Huron firmware has perhaps changed things. For the first time in years I have found the DirectStream to be much more relaxed and natural. It seems more detailed yet less fatiguing than before. The change from the prior version is really quite subtle, but it does seem to solve the fatigue issue. I am now considering ditching the M51 at this point, but need to do more tests. (Currently, my DirectStream is in a secondary location in a loudspeaker system, so I haven't done any comparative headphone listening with the new firmware).

    Hope that's somewhat helpful, even though all this is for the DirectStream "Senior," not the Junior.

    At the time of the Yggdrasil tests, headphones were HD650s stock + Asgard2 amp; and the DACs were also compared in various loudspeaker setups. Primary music preferences are jazz trio and mixed classical.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  11. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,040
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Forest
    Neither NAD M51 and DirectSteam are R2R DACs

    -------------------
    I am quite familiar with the limiting factors that Yggdrasil has.. it has slightly compressed dynamics(macro) for a R2R design (still better than 99% things out there), probably limited by the Output stage (the one i auditioned had original USB interface)
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  12. skem

    skem Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,911
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Charles River
    Yes, which is why I think Yggdrasil did as well as it did. I had previously tried the Theta DSPro V, another R2R, and it also was smooth but also lacked detail.

    I don’t fully understand it, but I slightly suspect the reason why both M51 and DS sound good to me is that they both operate far, far above the normal sampling rate of most sigma-delta DAC chips (Sabre/Burr), and thus any windowing effects/ringing/etc cause by approaching the Nyquist limit are shifted well out of the audioband; but this is a fairly crude supposition.
     
  13. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,750
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Home Page:
    @MyPetSasquatch My thoughts are actually similar to @skem 's regarding the Torreys to Huron update. While some on the PS Audio forum reported some incredibly wild differences they heard (likely what they thought they heard) both better and worse, and everywhere in between, for my system I found the update subtle at best. I perceived the update as a increase in microdetails than anything.

    When I took my DSJ and Pass Labs amp around to try speakers, the pairing with the ATC SCM40 was stunning. As a person who loves playing and listening to acoustic guitar, imo, the sound coming out was life-like from what I'd hear from my guitar at home.
     
  14. jnak00

    jnak00 Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Likes Received:
    606
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Canada
    I live in Canada, and had a Modi Multibit die within a few hours of receiving it. Schiit's service was excellent - they sent me a new power supply to try first. That didn't fix it, so they replaced the unit for me. No issues with shipping and they marked the replacement as a repair so I didn't get double-dinged with tax or import fees.
     
  15. drgumbybrain

    drgumbybrain Science Nut

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2017
    Likes Received:
    2,219
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Lives in Fortaleza, Heart in Girona
    Sorry to.
    Bring this topic from the dead. But have you guys compared the red cloud and snow mass with Yggdrasil analog 2?
    It would be a very valued impressions for people willing to have one or another
     
  16. Partytime

    Partytime Facebook Friend

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2019
    Likes Received:
    170
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I can't give you exactly what you want, but...

    I have the Gungnir MB and the Bifrost MB as well as the DirectStream (senior).

    I listened to the Yggdrasil for a while at the Schiitr this past weekend.

    I preferred the DS sound over any of the Schiit. Haven't spent much time with the Yggdrasil, but it sounded very similar to the Gungnir to me.

    The Schiit stuff is great, and I like it a lot (I own a ton). For my tastes I found the PS DAC much better. The Schiit DACs, as referenced here, are kind of forward and to me a little "shouty"

    The PS sounds more "smooth" and "integrated" sounding, if those descriptors make any sense.

    The PS is on Snowmass.

    Just my two cents.
     
  17. winders

    winders boomer

    Banned
    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,596
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    San Martin, CA
    I agree...I am very happy with my DirectStream. It has all the detail of the current Yggdrasil yet has a much more pleasant presentation. It is smoother or, if you prefer, has less of a digital sound. The highs are less strident yet all of detail is present. The highs are not rolled off either.

    What has really impressed me recently is how great many of the DSD rips I have made from SACDs sound. In the past I wasn’t anti-DSD, but I was not in the believer camp. Well, that has changed a bit now that I have some quality DSD content to listen to. For example, I just bought the SHM SACD of “Beggars Banquet” and ripped it to my Roon server. It sounded so good I had an emotional experience. One of the reasons I sold my Yggdrasil and bought the DirectStream was to give DSD a fair trial. I am very glad I did.
     
  18. Partytime

    Partytime Facebook Friend

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2019
    Likes Received:
    170
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Less digital is a great way to describe it. It’s all in the presentation.

    They’re both great, and I think they both give you every last detail that’s in a recording. For me the PS just puts all back together a little better.
     

Share This Page