ZMF Verite Closed

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by Vtory, Jul 21, 2019.

  1. James Whiting

    James Whiting Facebook Friend

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] I have been enjoying my Leopardwood Verite Closed for about a week now! Have just over 100 hundred hours on them...about 200 hours on the Wywires Platinum Headphone cable. I am using the Auteur Hybrids. Will play with pads after 200 hours to see what works best. But I really like the Hybrid pads. Run the same thing on my Auteur Blackwood minus the perforations.

    As they break in both the cable and the headphones, their tonality and overall midrange is close enough to the Auteur that I don't miss the Auteurs. But the Verite closed are a lot more fun. Dynamics, soundstage, focus, detail and PRAT are all noticeably better than the Blackwoods. Interesting those are all the big strengths of the Wywires as well in comparison with the Graphene Carbon harness I have. Going from memory since it went back for repair a while back and I should very shortly have it back for direct comparison.

    Really love the combination. Almost feels like I have added a subwoofer to the Auteurs. They really kick and slam with authority. Pyromania is just crazy fun on my 96K/24 bit tidal Flacs. Never did go to one of their concerts, but this really recreates the atmosphere of being there. My Blue Coast DSD's are beyond transcendent on this combo. Particularly enjoying Keith Greeninger and Coco Scott!
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
  2. futbutts

    futbutts Friend

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    Just today received a beautiful pair of second-hand Camphor Burl VC's.

    I am loathe to speak ill of ZMF's products, because Zach is awesome, but first impressions are mixed. The timbre is really good, speed is really excellent, and the soundstage is great considering they are closed. Detail retrieval is excellent, and the build quality is beautiful, of course. But I agree with some other impressions that either the bass tuning or cup resonance is a tad fatiguing, or something. My pair came with the Universal pads as well as the 'more neutral' Be2 pads -- I was hoping the Be2 pads would mitigate that warmth/resonance overload a bit but it kind of shifted that fatiguing-ness a little higher into the midbass.

    I've also noticed in other ZMF headphones (Atticus/Eikon/Auteur) a kind of veiled or nasally or stuffy quality that I could never get entirely behind. I've put them on a few times wanting to love them as much as I love my Ori's and always end up feeling like there's a sheet of tissue paper between the music and me. With all the talk of the VC's beryllium speed and transient response and sounding very open for closed-backs I was hoping that maybe they'd differ from that particular facet of the ZMF 'house sound' -- but I'm not sure they do.

    But I'm going to give them their due diligence, especially since I have reason to believe these may not even be entirely burned in -- and I've been considering investing in a good OTL tube amp (ampsandsound perhaps) and want to demo these with one of those before deciding whether they're really for me or not.

    (Considering the price of the VC's could get a pretty robust tube amp and a 2541 with a little change to spare, it's not as easy a decision to make as I'd like.)
     
  3. earnmyturns

    earnmyturns Smartest friend

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    The way I'd put it is that VC sounds like a small-ish room with quite a bit of absorption in the midrange that may be felt as slightly muffled, but some lower frequency resonance. Just listening to a string quartet (Ravel Op. 35, Jerusalem Quartet) > Holo Spring 2 KTE > ecp DSHA-3F (amorphous) > VC maple burl (Auteur pads) that makes those characteristics quite clear (lower cello notes vs violin). I quite like this small room sound for what I most listen to, small ensemble jazz and classical, but I could imagine it sounding a bit stuffy for other genres.
     
  4. ChaChaRealSmooth

    ChaChaRealSmooth SBAF's Mr. Bean

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    Entirely possible this is that cup reverb that you dislike. I've heard people describe it in completely opposite ways; either "spacious" or "stuffy/closed."

    Please do not be afraid to state you dislike this. Just because it's well-received by established members doesn't mean you have to like it.
     
  5. futbutts

    futbutts Friend

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    Certain songs and genres it’s not even noticeable, and others it sounds like it was recorded through a cotton ball. It’s pretty odd. ‘Abbey Road’ sounds f'ing great. Metal, for example, gets kind of bloated.

    What’s funny is the Ori’s don’t display this trait at all, or at least not as overtly. I wonder if it’s due to their dynamic cans using larger drivers or having less damping material in the cup. I’m not about to crack open 3-grand headphones to try and mod them and see but I wonder if @zach915m could weigh in on it.

    And honestly what hesitation I have to critique ZMF’s headphones is because I adore Zach so much. His kindness and patience in answering a litany of new-audiophile questions was pivotal in my finally committing to ordering a near-$1000 pair of headphones years ago, and I wish him and the company nothing but success. So writing up lukewarm feelings about their flagship is slightly unpleasant for me.
     
  6. zach915m

    zach915m MOT: ZMF Headphones

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    If you like the ORI a lot you'd probably like the auteur pads (in lambskin for fastest transients or suede for most neutral/damped) , as the ORI has somewhat a similar lessening of the 130 to 250 hz area that makes things sound "cleaner" like the auteur pads do on the VC. Universe/Be is more downsloped while retaining that lower midrange.

    Typically VC owners fall into one of two camps where either the auteur or Universe and Be pads are preferred. The universe and Be pad are iterations of the same room size while the auteur is something different. So if you want less girth in that male vocal area a-la ORI it'd be worth it to try.

    Send me an email through the site and we can get you the right set.

    But yes I'm not saying the auteur pads will make you like them, that also could not be the case!

    And hey thanks for the kind words I always do my best to be helpful, I realize not every headphone I make is for everyone, they are all different and have different uses - regardless of price.
     
  7. futbutts

    futbutts Friend

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    Point in case, Zach is the best.

    I will add that I'm this close to shoving my foot way in my mouth because I'm digging the sound signature much more today. (That first impressions evolve, for better or worse, is nothing to new anyone who's demo'd gear for any bit of time ... what is it? Brain burn-in? Gear burn-in? Both?)

    I'm not noticing nearly the same veiled-ness that I was bitching about yesterday, other than on paticularly murky recordings. The great timbre and raw speed is really starting to grow on me -- transients have an amazing immediacy and sense of slap, without relying on being overly energetic up top, that I can see myself getting very addicted to. Again, whether it's my brain or the hardware, it feels like the headphones are really opening up and I'm getting much more of a sense of spaciousness now, and all the little plankton-y details these can crank out fill in that extra space. I was also coming from HD800/650/600's/Oris, all of which range from bright-ish to neutral, so something as colored as the VC was probably going to give me culture shock no matter what. Switching over to the Ori's and you really get a sense of how refined and resolving the VC's are in comparison -- it's like a really hopsy beer vs a smooth aged whiskey.

    Like I mentioned... due diligence.
     
  8. ckhirnigs

    ckhirnigs Friend

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    @futbutts I’m glad to hear you’re enjoying them more today. That being said, I second Zach’s recommendation to get yourself a pair of the Auteur Lambskin pads. That’s the stock pad for the VC, so you haven’t even heard them the way Zach prefers yet. I briefly tried the Universe pads on my VC and quickly went back to the Auteur pads.
     
  9. futbutts

    futbutts Friend

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    I actually already had those which I use with my AKG K7XX! I swapped them briefly but pretty quickly didn’t think they were for me... but that was yesterday when for whatever reason I wasn't gelling with them anyway. So I'll definitely try that switch again.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  10. James Whiting

    James Whiting Facebook Friend

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    The Auteur Lambskin are a little upper mid range to high frequency bright and possibly have a bit less energy in the upper bass from what I hear initially with them. They really don't sound completely right with the VC until they are pretty close to broken in. For the first 200 hours I preferred the Auteur Hybrids. After that it was definitely the Lambskins. Once the VC's settle the Hybrid Auteurs are a hint too warm and I think they slightly emphasize tone over harmonic structure. They also lose a bit of detail and speed and are a hair less focused, but initially they do sound more correct overall. As you improve other things in your system it becomes even easier to hear the improvements the Lambskin Auteur pads make. I like the focus of the Universe pads which is a bit better and they do have a bit more depth, but their width and tonality disqualify them by comparison, they also seem to have a bit more low end punch but the VC's are close enough and tweaking my equipment and setup gets most of that difference back anyway.

    Happy listening,

    jgwtriode
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
  11. futbutts

    futbutts Friend

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    It's been two months with these and they've rather abruptly really clicked with me, with the Universe pads in particular. The VC's seem to be a pair of headphones that you have to sorta meet halfway in regards to what they do. I initially purchased them thinking they'd be a direct upgrade to the great timbre of the Ori's, for example, or maybe the detail retrieval of the HD800's, and they're not quite those things. They are those things, but rolled in a very different presentation that really does give an amazing sense of a performance -- more than any pair of headphones I've heard they give a sense of being in a room with a band, or at least in a room with some really great speakers, where detail and resolution and timbre are not so overt and flashy... more subtle and tasteful. On certain jazz recordings in particular it feels like my ear is leaned up right beside a piano, or a resonant snare drum -- basically, my ear is the microphone -- which is an experience I've never had with anything else. It took quite awhile (and burn-in, either psychologically or physically with the drivers) for me to come to appreciate this stage-like presentation. I think I generally prefer headphones over speakers because it seems easier to me to parse apart the production and instrumentation, so with the VC's I expected that delivery par excellence, but the VC is not that. Its goals are very different altogether -- and once you're on board with those goals it's an intoxicating experience that is utterly unique.

    I've wavered on and off but have ended up not caring for them with the Auteur Lambskins (which I think might actually be cowhide, and maybe that's why) which seems to rob them of that stage illusion and pushes them into a more typical headphone experience of binaural imaging, leaving their cup resonance and warmish (to my ears) tilt a bit overbearing.

    I think of all the headphones I've ever owned this one might be a case study in driver burn-in as well. Over the course of the first maybe 50 hours my pad preference jumped all over the place -- from preferring the Auteur pads to the Universe and then even Ori pads (which later sounded absurdly warm and bassy) back to the Universe. I think they've settled down now and how they sound with any given set of pads seems much more consistent. I disliked the Be2 pads enough when I first received the VC's that I never tried them again, but think they subsequently probably deserve a revisit.

    I also recently purchased an ampsandsound Kenzie, and weirdly enough do not really care for that pairing so far. In fact I wonder if it's source-dependent as via both Jot 2/Bifrost Multibit and now Kenzie/BFM, I find the VC's pretty underwhelming... yet via Lyr 3/zen Blue it's very enjoyable. But I also just got a couple different JJ tubes to roll with the Kenzie, so there may be some evolution in that parameter as well.

    Basically, between choice of pads and what might be persnickety behavior insofar as amps and source, the VC introduces a lot of variability that demands some work to find the best fit for your own set-up and preferences... but if you put in that effort (and to some extent, luck out) they are deeply, deeply rewarding. In the course of literally one listening session I went from thinking I was going to sell them off, to experiencing auditory nirvana (via the Universe/Lyr3/ZenBlue combo) and realizing I could never part with them. It also took me this much listening to feel like I could commit to buying some other pads to roll with and cater them even more to a hypothetical ideal.

    I don't consider this a review but wanted to further chart this weird journey. If I land on a pad/system combo that really really knocks my socks off I'll feel more comfortable having a definitive opinion then. For now the experience is still maturing. First impressions are far from everything with the VC's.
     
  12. TonyNewman

    TonyNewman Validated by Tyll removing Utopia from WOF

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    It's a great headphone. I particularly like that it is very non-fatiguing. Hours and hours of listening is easy on the ears and very enjoyable - I could not say that about the Focal Utopia, for example.
     
  13. Taverius

    Taverius Smells like sausages

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    And brain burn-in.

    I gave both my VO and my VC 300 hours on a stand and I still did the no-its-too-dark-no-its-too-bright dance with both, eventually settling on Be2/Universe.

    VC is both my main driver and my gaming headphone, probably spends 40+ hours on my head per week.

    Small side benefit, I have way less neck pain than I used to, thanks to the constant weight training.

    Even with the magnesium baffles, Ironwood VCs are kinda like Goku's or Rock Lee's training weights.
     
  14. futbutts

    futbutts Friend

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    I have continued to basically fall in love with the VC's. It has me rethinking my prior opinions on driver burn-in (that even if it exists it probably doesn't matter much) because it's hard to imagine how my appreciation for these could continue to bloom more and more and more via just 'psychological' burn-in. The Be2's have become possibly my favorite pads with them (this gives the VC's a very 600-esque, slightly subbass-lite presentation, in my opinion, but with insane detail retrieval), but now the Auteur pads are really excellent too (like the Universe pads but with the bass heft moved up into the midbass slam a bit more, and the mids rendered slightly more sweetly) -- and of course the Universe pads are really really great, like listening to speakers in a cozy room, but then there are the (recently purchased) Universe hybrids which relaxes that all-encompassing bass just a touch, and very pleasingly. And now I want to try the Verite pads...

    So, yes, I've turned into what I never thought I'd become: an ardent pad roller. But the VC's make it a joy because every new set of pads is literally like owning another set of headphones, with myriad personalities and focus points, on a level that I think exceeds the difference between the 600's/650's, or maybe even the jump from 800's to 800S'es. That's the difference between the VC's and other headphones that require pad-rolling: with the VC's I'm perfectly content to switch between all the varieties of pads available for as long as my hearing keeps working. For whatever reason, despite earlier impressions that hopped all over the place, they all seem to be gravy now.

    They've also begun to ruin other headphones for me. The Ori's are still great but also like, a tad anemic and grainy in comparison? The HD800's are obviously very spacious and airy but not like, velvety and smooth the way the VC's are, and they're also a bit overly professional in comparison. The 600's and 650's sound like they present 70% of the soundscape that the VC's deliver, to where they almost seem a bit cottony or something. (Maybe that's the Sennheiser veil I keep hearing about.)

    Their responsiveness to different amps and sources is fun, as well. Their transparency and soundstage via the Lyr 3 is remarkable. Their timbral richness and layering via the Kenzie 2 is addictive. The Jot 2 pairs really well with the Be2 pads, since I think it tilts just a tiny bit warm -- I don't like it as much with the Auteur/Universe pads.

    This basically constitutes my review. Call it acquired taste (maybe) or burn-in (I wonder) but the VC's went, for me, from underwhelming to top of the hill for me over the course of what I guess is about eight months now. I've grown to like products in the past and soured on others as well, but never to this extreme. The VC's are amazing. With a little patience and experimentation they can prove to be endlessly rewarding, and I genuinely thank my lucky stars I stuck it out.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2022
  15. Jinxy245

    Jinxy245 Vegan Puss

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    I found that to be really interesting, I've never heard the Ori called anemic before...could you say more??
     
  16. futbutts

    futbutts Friend

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    Just relative to the VC's. They're more neutral (with oval pads) which compared to the VC's creamy richness sounds anemic. I do think the Ori's are overall more 'accurate'.

    Edit: I think I can be more detailed. The Ori's are in my opinion more neutral with oval pads especially as to my ear the midbass is a bit less humpy but still impactful, and they have really deep-reaching subbass. Their mids are nicely detailed with timbre that is, in my opinion, pretty much a bullseye, and nice highs that either don't have quite the refinement or resolution of the VC's, but I think are just a bit more 'etched' -- not in a bad way, but again, I think probably in a more 'honest' way. The VC's are definitely more romantic all around, with more midbass presence and something going on in the mids that give drums and bass guitar an amazing amount of heft, something the Ori's don't have with what to me is thinner, but more 'normal', midrange presentation.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 5, 2022
  17. sp33ls

    sp33ls Friend

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    I've had the exact same experience. I ended up selling my LCD-5 and held on to the 800S as my TOTL open-back to complement the VC.
    However, I've found that overtime the VC has spent increasingly more time on my head. The only time I use the 800S now is for longer gaming sessions.

    I have a feeling that the Atrium will replace the 800S for me as my open-back complement for the VC, and my wife will likely "inherit" my 800S as she really likes them. The 800S is difficult to not at least keep around as a sort of occasional "palate cleanser." While it offers a fun experience, the 800S just doesn't connect with me emotionally like the VC. Tubes do lend a hand here, however.

    I've ended up enjoying the Universe Lambs the most on the VC. In one of Zach's interviews he said the Uni pads were meant to be a more "neutral" experience for most models, which may mean I prefer "ZMF neutral?" I also enjoy the Auteur pads but some songs border on the "shouty" side to my ears, so it tends to depend on my mood and what type of music I'm enjoying that day.
     
  18. ilikebananafudge_

    ilikebananafudge_ Friend

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    I've been slowly exploring pads on my VC in my usual way (I don't do A/B comparisons, I just live with something for a while and then switch and repeat). Here are some general impressions:


    Auteur Lambskin (AL)
    These have tons of texture and decay, but they do sound a little peaky. For some reason, the peaks and valleys of the frequency response are a little more noticeable with these. They have less bass than the UL pads, but the mids—especially vocals—are a little more present than the UL pads.

    Universe Lambskin (UL)
    These have a smoother response than the Auteur pads, and they have more bass (especially deep bass), but they sound a little less engaging in the mids and lower treble and they're a little darker overall. They have good decay and texture, but a bit less than AL.

    Verite BE2 Lambskin (BL)
    These are kind of boring to me—I ended up selling them. They have much less texture and decay and they're a little too forward, bordering on shouty to my ears. The slam is a little better, so they're a little more engaging, but overall they take away too much of what makes the VC special IMO.

    Universe Suede (US)
    These are probably the closest to neutral in terms of frequency response, but I didn't enjoy them. The suede doesn't work for me on the VC. It sounded like the texture and decay that's so enjoyable on the lambskin pads gets turned into a background buzz that I found unpleasant. It's interesting because suede sounds so good on my fiancee's Aeolus—like a pleasant, warm, fuzzy blanket for my ears—but it doesn't work for me on the VC. I think it also detracts too much from the transient speed of the VC.

    Auteur Hybrid (AH)
    These are my favorite. They have almost as much texture and decay as the AL, but their frequency response sounds more even to me. Thankfully, they don't create the weird buzz that I hear from US. Something I noticed about the full lambskin pads after listening to these is that lambskin emphasizes the quick transients with a crisp initial attack, and then the decay manifests after a tiny delay, so it's almost like an echo. In other words, the initial attack and decay sound slightly disconnected. In contrast, the AH help to 'bridge the gap', so the decay doesn't sound as much like an echo. Personally, I think these should be the stock pads, but maybe it's just good synergy with my system.


    Overall Ranking
    Auteur Hybrid > Auteur Lambskin > Universe Lambskin > BE2 Lambskin > Universe Suede
     
  19. wbass

    wbass Friend

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    @ilikebananafudge_

    Do you still hold to these rankings? Have you tried other pads with the VC? Thinking of trying the Auteur Hybrid on mine. I find even the Universe lambskin a little dark.
     
  20. Ksaurav402

    Ksaurav402 Friend

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    Auteur Lambskin and hybrid are way to go if you need spark
     

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