Bang-for-the-Buck DAC to complement The Jotunheim

BULLSHIT. Name a better deal for 300-500ish other than just buying the Modi 2U (probably best for headphones and just saving) or some entry level interface and pocketing the difference.

You mention "Crappy dynamics" but you're using a Schiit Multibit DAC not the Bifrost Multibit. The Modi Multibit is veiled and the Gungnir Multibit and Yggdrasil exhibit noticeable transient compression/normalization/uniformity despite their varied presentations. The Emotiva DC-1 has that AD1955 timbre but hmmmm............

 

I do have Emotiva Powered Desk Monitors on order. But I could run those out of the Jot, if I don't get the DC-1.

To make my goals out of this set up clearer, this is a small desk set budget set up, but also will be my main headphone/nearfield kit. 99% use for listening to music. I will do no pro work on it. I have a production set up already.

Emotiva Powered monitors, HD650M, and Jot. Those things are set in stone. Already purchased and I like them better than all the other options I tried. Just need DAC and tube pre amp. 99% of my library is 16bit FLAC.

$500 is my limit on the DAC, because if I go any higher I could just get the Gugnir. I really would get the Gugnir if it wasn't for that huge footprint. I don't really have space for anything bigger than the Bifrost Multibit/Jot really.

I think I am going to get both the DC-1 and the Modi Multibit and keep the one I like best. Unless there is other suggestions.

Thanks guys.

 

Among other things, I do listen to Marginal Metal Recordings. I guess I better listen to him then. Haha.

 

I have no idea what sound you will like (HD 650 M is bassier and less neutral than stock) but you will probably like the features of the DC-1 more if you are using it as an all in one desktop unit to powered monitors (from the XLRs) and a headphone amp (from the RCAs). Powered monitors can have trouble with unbalanced connections. Using the Jot or any headphone amp really as a powered preamp is a bad idea in general too.

 

Isn't the modi 2u akm4490 based?
Haven't heard the M2U but akm4490 sucked in both A&K300 and Aune S6.
Modi2/Magni2 stack was decent sounding for the price. Much more convincing sound than the Sabre crap.

 

The Modi 2U is cheap as hell and relatively neutral when compared to the cheaper Schiit multi-bits, Chinese crap, and various dongles like LH Labs.

 

If you have ever listened to a Modi2 > Jot > HD650M, that's the sound signature I like. Punchy on the sub-low end, then mostly flat the rest of the way. Don't like vocals taking a back seat. I am a drummer so if the drums lack detail I can't listen. They Jot gives me all of that. And I like the detail I get from upright bass. Another important piece for me.


I have listened to the following dacs through the Jot>HD650M:
1) built-in double AK4490 liked everything but that little bit of glare on the high mids. Plus I need Toslink. f**k USB.
2) Modi2, I liked what I heard. But it sounded no different than running the Fulla 2 through the Jot, I want better that I can hear. If I can't hear a difference I am not spending money on it.
3) TEAC UD-503 (and 301) loved the feature set, but SQ wise there was nothing there for me. I tried it because someone on HEADFI said it was a better DAC than the Gungnir Multibit, Bifrost Multibit and the DC-1. And I believe I was trolled. Because I think the Modi2/Fulla2 sounded better than that $500 POS.

At this point I am thinking that the My options based on my constrains and that I DO NOT have golden ears, are limited to:

DC-1: I love love the feature set, and will be perfect match for my emotiva powered monitors. It's balanced. I have other emotiva pro gear and I like their build quality. But it is sigma delta. Also it has a headphone amp that I have no plans of using.

Modi Multibit: its Multibit implementation that is $250 (half the price of the DC-1) and seems to have good synergy with the Jot+HD6X0. No pre amp and it is single ended.

So features wise the DC-1 is the clear winner. But it comes at a price and questionable DAC quality. (I have not heard it, and neither has most of the people here it seems). I can't find sound quality compassions against schiit DACS.

But the Modi Multibit is half the price and MB. so if the sound quality is munch better on the Modi Multibit, I'll just go that route. And hook my Powered monitors some other way.

I'll probably do get both and return the one I like least.

@Psalmanazar would you say that there differences between the Modi Multibit and Bifrost Multibit are enough to justify the price difference? I know there are differences in implementation, but $350 worth of differences?

Btw, I listen to all kinds of music that it is NOT Pop, electronica / EDM, OR HIP-HOP.

Jazz, Classical, Rock-Metal, Blues are my daily drivers. I can go from Carl Orff to Stanley Clark to Meshuggah to Muddy Waters on the same playlist.

 

You will hate the Bifrost Multibit as it's not punchy. The Jot DAC sucks and is not indicative of all AK4490 implementations. The upper mid / low treble glare is in the Jot itself, not the DAC.

I don't think you would like the Modi Multibit or the Bifrost Multibit honestly unless you can deal with the Bifrost Multibit's lack of bass punch or the veiled treble in the Modi Multibit, which would solve the Jot's problems but induce other ones.

You actually sound like you may really like Bifrost 4490. It is colored but you may really like it as it hits like a monster. You will probably love the Gungnir Multibit and maybe the Yggdrasil even Yggdrasil has a forward presentation in the upper mids but nothing like the Jot; both Gungnir Multibit and Yggdrasil have slightly fat bass and are flattish after that. I am not saying you will like any of this stuff on the Jot as what you said you do not like about the Jot is what nobody particularly likes about the Jot, including myself, which is why I own the Asgard 2 instead of the Jot.

A lot of the recordings you listed have no detail in the drumming so why should they have detail? It's not really possible for a hyper-compressed master to have great drum detail and realistic levels. Meshuggah is pseudo-metal post-hardcore made of all samples eqed to be v-shaped and hyper compressed so why should it not sound like shit on a high-fidelity setup? It sounds like shit as it sounds like shit and way worse than any of the Scott Burns produced death metal or 1990s MTV rock records that also were all samples. A lot of older recordings pre-multi-track tape machines don't have any good detail outside of the snare either so why should the drums on them sound particularly life-like on a high-fidelity setup?

 

Oh I gave up trying to make metal (specially drums) sound good hence the "Marginal recordings" comment. When I go through my collection of meta and rock, if I go back far enough in years, the recording quality was sub par for some albums but it was enjoyable. Then the closer I get to the '90's and 2000's the compression and loudness makes it painful for me to listen to.

The comment on Drums sounding the way I like them, is when I am listing to my Jazz records, and live performances of the likes of Miles Davis and my Buddy Rich Collection. I also listen to a lot of music with African and Latin percussion instruments and I get turned off when those are not reproduced well. I don't have golden ears, I am actually going deaf, but I do know what those instruments should sound like, and they sound like shit when listened through a V shaped sound system like car stereos and skull candy anything. Haha.

I guess Meshuggah was a bad example since they are pretty much an exemption rather the the rule when it comes to what I listen to. But I was raised on Black Sabbath, DIO, Led Zeppelin, Rainbow, Slayer, Megadeth, Metallica, etc. But if you count how many times I have seen them live, you would say slayer is my favorite childhood band. I still go see them live when I can and I have tickets to see them twice in July.

But I don't equate metal with quality recordings. I like metal live, well I like all my music live, but metal on a recording just doesn't have the same effect for me any more. I listen to the rest of my music at home and enjoy it. But metal I take on small doses and not with headphones. I just play it on my 2.1 system (Emotiva Stealth 8's) in the house or my system in the car and play it loud.

Thank you all for your insight on the Dacs, I'll add the Bifrost AK4490 to my list and start listening. I ll check out the DC-1, Modi Multibit, And Bifrost AK4490. I might have to drive a couple of hours to Emotiva HQ to listen to them damned thing. Hope they don't get mad when I walk in there carrying a Jot on my hands and my HD650M on my head.

Also since no one has mentioned it, I guess selecting between MB and SD is not that important in my situation with my budget-fi setup and my vailed, war torn ears. So I won't weight that as heavily and base my decision on what actually sounds better with the gear I have. I don't have much media in anything higher than 96khz (16 or 24) and no DSD, MQA and or other snake oil. Just mostly 16Bit/96khz rips (and the CD'S themselves).

 

The Modi Multibit is a fine DAC for the money- the only big gotcha is that it's very jitter sensitive, so if you want to preserve the flavour of those sharp transients, especially the higher ones, it needs a clean source. Give it el-crappo motherboard SPDIF and it sounds flat, and very rolled-off. USB is also not great.

The problem is, a lot of those sources cost more than a Modi Multibit. A Raspberry Pi fitted with a Digi+ Pro or a just using Breeze U8 will do the trick, at about $100 each, but if you're tempted to spend more than that on making it sound its best, I'd just get a fancier DAC. It's a solid bit of kit if you feed it properly, and solve the weird cost Gordian knot.

 

Thank for everyone's input.

Hey @schiit will you slap a dual multibit chips in a Jotenheim expansion card, add TOSLINK and send it to me?, I'll give you $$$

 

I don't really want to argue with you about the ZDS I heard with the tubes I heard compressing/softening the volume and attack of Mick Fleetwood's cymbal/snare hits which are transients in the recording compared to other amps I have heard. The rumors about them being on massive amounts of cocaine are not rumors and you can look on the internet about what both Mick Fleetwood and Stevie Nicks admitted they did in private if you want as SBAF is a relatively work-friendly site except for phallic trophies. The truth is that I could do this test with almost any relatively uncompressed recorded and that is just the one I picked from the person who owned the ZDS's laptop as I've heard it before a lot.

Face it, I feel the TI current-feedback chip amp in the Grace M9XX is better than the ZDS in every frickin' way other than depth of stage.

The Bifrost Multibit takes the "grey background" / "tapeness" of the Gungnir Multibit and Yggdrasil and applies it to the entire low end. The Modi Multibit has it everywhere and sounds like a shitty 90s CD player. Actually I own CD players from the 90s that sound clearer than the Modi Multibit despite DS treble timbre. The Modi Multibit reminds me of this crappy late 80s CD player I heard at a meet that came with a platter thing to put over the CD and sounds like garbage with unclear guitar picking and you couldn't tell when each note ended with compressed guitars recorded with Marshall Valvestate heads as the CD player sucked. The Modi Multibit was like that with better bass punch and instrumental separation but still ultimately poop like an old CD player that deserves to end up in a landfill or hopefully an electronic waste recycling facility.

Gungnir Multibit and Yggdrasil are audibly compressed if you listen to range of volume of cymbal hits versus a decent DS DAC or the Bifrost Multibit. Yggdrasil sounds like you compressed them and just made them louder in the mix while Gungnir Multibit is more laid back. The Modi 2U AK4396 has better range of cymbal hits than the Gungnir Multibit but of course much worse treble timbre but slightly better bass timbre due to the Gungnir Multibit/Yggdrasil's weird ever so slight sustain of bass fundmentals issue. Bifrost Multibit has the best treble dynamics of any Schiit DAC but kick drums, male voices, and guitar/cello/bass fundamentals are totally wrong.

The DC-1 reminds me of a more detailed Apogee MiniDAC. The timbre is slightly off but it's not nearly as bad as dac/interfaces based around TI delta-sigma chips or Sabres. Again I think the Modi 2U and cheap interfaces like the Steinbergs are better buys for headphones and low-end powered desktop monitors respectively but there's nothing else I've found readily available to purchase for around 400-500 bucks even if I think the best option is to get something entry level and save for something really good, not just slightly better with more features.

How can you make the appeal to instrumental fidelity though and then suggest something that totally fucks over the fundamentals of instruments? The Gungnir Multibit and Yggdrasil are just fat to me, the Modi Multibit and Bifrost Multibit are just wrong.

We'll just have to agree to disagree as we disagree about everything related to cheap gear it seems. I wrote the above just so you may understand where I am coming from.

Yeah errors can compound errors. Bifrost Multibit -> Jot was forward + grain but Modi -> Jot was all that + slight glare and treble hashiness.

I had worse synergy issues when hearing the Torpedo 3 though. Worst was Modi -> T3 revealed the T3 v-shaped tonality and treble tizz that didn't matter that much on the Gungnir Multibit due to the Gungnir Multibit's own flaws synergizing well with it. The Gungnir Multibit -> T3 made the staging issues that much worse though worse though and made me wish I could listen to something flatter like a Mjolnir 2 or Jot.

 

I wish I could see a dedicated thread from you of gear you really like, or a reviews.

It actually may help a lot of folks out. A write up from you would be very interesting. Though I don't know if that is your steez or not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I listen to lots of live jazz cymbals at close quarters, and one thing I like my Yggdrasil for is how well it does the cymbal work or a top jazz drummer like Brian Blade or Eric Harland who uses the full loudness range from a feather touch to a full arm whack. The Bifrost Multibit is no slouch in that department, but the Yggdrasil captures better the small details from bushes and beat among different vibration modes on the cymbal surface.

 

Yeah the Yggdrasil of of course much more detailed and one of the best pieces of gear I've ever heard, I just noticed that it presents less variance of volume between hits than the Bifrost Multibit and some DS DACs. The forward and hyper-detailed presentation helps somewhat compares to Gungnir Multibit with this but I still notice it.

 

Great question. I'm mainly a jazz and classical listener, and for jazz cymbals I rely on tracks with drummers I have heard live often. With that background, here are a few that come to mind:

"Optimism," in "Accelerando," Vijay Iyer Trio (Marcus Gilmore on drums)
"Landmarks," in Brian Blade and the Fellowship Band's "Landmarks" album
"North Star," in "City Folk" by James Farm (Joshua Redman, Eric Harland, Aaron Parks, Marc Penman)
"A New Day," in "Prism" by Dave Holland, Craig Taborn, Kevin Eubanks, and Eric Harland
"Watercolors," in "East West Time Line," Kevin Eubanks
"Beyond All Limits," in "Mise en Abîme" by Steve Lehman (Tyshawn Sorey with his usual manic energy on drums)

I can get you more