USB Nervosa Thread Decrapifiers, pro interfaces, and bears oh my

Ok guys, let's all stick to stock usb ports, monoprice usb cables direct to dac and call it a day. USB tweaks are bad value for money and maybe phoney Mmmkay?

 

An Analogy.


I’m ‘into’ hi-end teas, have spent the time and effort to learn and experience a variety of teas from boxed and bagged teas from spaceway, to multi-K$ teas.

And I would venture a guess that not many here are ‘into’ tea, at any level.
This is akin to the general public’s general lack of awareness of tea vs. those who are ‘into’ tea.
Likewise most folks aren't 'into' audio, let alone want/need to push the envelope, so to speak.

Of course the learning curve for tea is (or can be) involved and takes a fair amount of exposure to the range of what is available.
But it also takes exposure and experience of what is possible to know what teas you like and what teas you don’t care for.
This is akin to those just starting out in audio vs. those who have spent the time and $$$$$$ and effort to explore what they like and what they don’t care for…

Along the way in learning about tea, the issue of how to best make tea, and what ‘tools’ and techniques help to make tea ‘Better’ is introduced into the picture.
This considerably complicates the picture, due to the variety of tools and their usefulness in making a particular tea.
For instance, some pots make no difference (glass for instance) while others can make the tea much ‘Better’ and other pots can make it far worse.
This is part of the learning curve, and is experientially based, meaning until you personally taste the tea you won’t know for yourself if that tea works well with that pot and water quality and temperature and brewing time etc, (the techniques).
And there are a myriad of possibilities and combinations of tools and techniques as well as teas.
This is akin to the choices we all have for gear and how we wind up using our setup

And with tea, each experience is unique, meaning the very same tea will present a different taste from pot to pot and even from cup to cup, and even from the first sip the the last for a cup.
This degree of ‘resolution’ is usually only apparent when your tea palate is developed well enough to be able to distinguish the subtle differences that are inherent in making and enjoying tea.
This is where exposure and experience comes into play, so that one can appreciate these differences in the first place.
This is akin to knowing what types of SQ are preferable vs. those that are less so.
But attaining this degree of perceptible resolution does take exposure and experience and then we can take on the task of determining if the results are ‘Better’, or not.
And each individual makes that choice for themselves.

Some teas are very flavorable while others are so slight they could be dismissed as being, just hot water.
But until one’s tea palette is developed and attuned, these 2 examples can easily be considered as being a less than desirable tea.
And they certainly can be for that individual at that time, but in the fullness of time (ie. added experience) both of these extremes can become very delightful to the very same individual.
This a kin to the refinement and a more thorough understanding of just what we desire and have come to understand, for ourselves, as being ‘Better’.

IOW this hobby accords us all the opportunity to explore what each of us likes and more importantly allows us to develop our appreciation for what added resolution and refinement and in which particular ways these aspects morph as we further develop our ability to hear ‘into’ the music.
This is what I call getting ‘calibrated’, meaning as we become all the more exposed to ‘Better’ SQ, we can all the better judge if any changes we make to our system are truly ‘Better’, or are they just different.

All of this reminds me of what Bruce Lee once told me…
‘In the beginning of training a punch is just a punch, and a kick is just a kick.
While delving into the training and learning all of the aspects of martial arts, a punch is much more than a punch, and a kick is much more than just a kick.
Then when a degree of mastery is achieved, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick.’

So it is with any degree of self mastery.
We learn by doing and where we focus our attention, we achieve added understanding which can lead to wisdom, if we so choose.

JJ

 

This thread has become very f'ing preachy.

 

So, did Mutec ever get back to you about the sonic differences in their firmware update that they claimed not to contain sonic differences?

 

@Marvey I've heard the story about the Denon. After conferring with the League of Shadows, I know what CD transport to buy.

 

Y'all want crazy, here it is:



Why would I do this? Because I can.
Sounds pretty decent actually. Think I'm going to spend some serious listening time with this system.
For the noobs, a Gustard U12 would normally sit in place of the Mutec MC-3+USB. The U12 ASIO driver appears to be very stable doing a decent job of making sure the data packet trains run on time. The U12 is 6x less money than the MC-3+USB. Oh, and the Vali 2 comes alive for me, in my system when used with a readily available, $20 Electro Harmonix 6cg7.

 

I got the Wyrd because my MBP gagged on Netflix when connected to a DAC via USB (the sound jittered, then the picture went nuts, then my movie crashed). Shittiest USB as @zerodeefex said. The Wyrd fixed that.

 

Yeah all of those 'extra' accessories just make the whole 'ceremony' a PIA as far as I'm concerned.

The Japanese do a ceremony, where every move is choreographed etc. very complex and deliberately so.

The Chinese method used to be really complex and used a whole bunch of tools, but the way I was taught was very simple yet sophisticated and required a fair amount of experience to know steep times and temperature etc. and how to dial each steeping in for optimal results.
And then there is the 'art' of 'raising' the pot and determining what tea(s) it will be suitable for.

When I was hanging out at the tea house making tea for all of the customers while they all spoke to each other in whatever dialect they choose, (and I didn't understand anything they were saying) it was a 'trick' to keep up with the 'demand'.
The ideal was to never let any cup stay empty, unless it was upside down…

The thing is, at least for me, making tea for a group is like going to a pub or coffee house where everyone is sitting around telling stories and sharing life experiences while enjoying some really fine tea.
And unlike a pub, no one gets loaded, or way to jittery from coffee (although tea can get you 'high') it’s a much more relaxed and convivial experience.

Joe the owner of the tea store gave me a set of 10 'official tea institute' video tapes from Taiwan, on how to make tea, which I watched and didn't understand a single word, but the video told me all I needed to know.
And when I asked Joe why the method was so rigid and didn't reflect what he had taught me, he said it was the official 'method' but everyone knew how to make tea 'the right way'.

And that technique of stuffing the pot and hitting it with boiling water etc. seems like a method to impress and separate those who know from those who don't know what really good tea is truly all about.

The true sign of good tea is when your body knows and automatically reaches for your cup after it has been refilled because you drank all that was served, time and time again.
But when the cup is never emptied, because your body knows it isn't what it wants, well that's the sign that tells the tale.

And as more experience is gained the tea making process becomes all the more refined and 4-5-6-7-8 steeps becomes the norm, then you know you've got your technique dialed in.
It's not a matter of going by the steps but by paying attention to all of the signs (like how the pot responds during the steep) and playing with the variables to nail the results.
That's when that last 1.2% shows up, because all of the parameters are optimized because intuitively they are taken into account.

Pu-Erh is the epitome of this whole process where 20-30 steeps is attainable IF you know what you're doing AND have the correct pot etc.
And the results can be sublime, something like a tea version of a fine port with rich and deep flavors that morph and change even while drinking from just one sip.
But without the opportunity to experience this level of enjoyment one may never know what the range of flavors that are attainable from really fine tea can truly be.

But it takes experience to know how all of these details influence each other and how to compensate as the number of steeps goes up, that is if you want to nail it and explore as much of the subtleties as are available.

JJ

 

I've heard this system and its brother using the Gustard DDC and can vouch for the wonderfulness of it.

It punches in way, Way, WAY higher than its very modest $$$ total system cost would ever suggest.
In fact for the majority of folks it would be enough to last them for years and years of sublime enjoyment.

And yes there are several tweaks and refinements both h/w and s/w incorporated into it but it so leaves much more expensive systems so far behind, it's somewhat embarrassing.

And it can be improved/tweaked/upgraded as time and budget allow so it isn't stuck with no where to go if the compulsion to upgrade manifests.

JJ

 

Paul McGowan talks about USB & digital inputs a little here, just FYI ~6:45 into the video:

 

For some of us vinyl isn't an option though.

 

thank you. enjoying music is pretty easy. with shitty or great gear. whatever.

 

I don't think the USB cynicism is completely warranted. USB inputs have com a long way. Used to be that every DAC benefited from external USB interfaces. Now quite a few DACs don't. I think if everyone used galvanic isolation, I2S designed properly, ground isolation, reclocking people would have little to complain about.

For the most part USB does it's job and it is a mature technology. It also can have very low jitter (much lower than SPDIF) and when the planets align transmit DXD quad DSD etc. The downside seems to be noise.

Regarding noise, that is what galvanic isolation (after the USB receiver) is for. Still I recall heroic measures Berkeley Audio Design used in BADA USB to control noise. Galvanic isolation has finite efficacy. It's better not to have the noise in the first place. Lower noise computer source optimised for audio is a good step here. Minimalist SD card transport is the most extreme measure.

AES3 and SPDIF are not the ultimate performance though. Compared against LVDS I2S they are not optimal for high bandwidth interconnect over short distances. I think there is reason some high end companies try to bypass SPDIF. SPDIF also for now maxes out at 24/192.

Another issue is USB running out of bandwidth, and some of the better network streaming solutions showing up (which are pretty much shrunk down computers). I could imagine microrendu type device with isolated reclocked LVDS I2S output, or else third party network adapter cards inside the dac.

Most of the laptops and dedicated streaming devices I heard at recent show sounded like crap compared to the CD transports or vinyl. I suspect no matter what tech is used to get music out of a computer or off a hard drive is some compromise. I wish there were more options for really good SD card transports.

It's possible to build a better computer source, at a cost, but I suspect a lot of streaming devices are still under-performing. if you have to use a computer though you may as well use a good one, as it will still influence the quality of the system. Computer performance as transport is so compromised it could hold some DACs back, especially the higher end stuff with super low noise floor. For mid range stuff with higher noise floor the computer might contribute less to the overall noise.

If you have to use a computer you may as well take advantage of the strong points - low cost, ease of use, high res audio, computing power for DSP etc.

 

Ya know it seems to me that an ethernet to I2S card built into the DAC would be about ideal.
The 'best' of the available AOIP dedicated networking protocols seems to be Danté.
But I don't know if their Brooklyn cards have I2S output ports, or not.

But it seems to me that combination would be ideal, for a variety of reasons.

But for now, what we have to work with is AES which is 'Better' than SPDIF at least in my system, as the gap just kept getting wider and wider.
SPDIF is the 'stepchild' of the AES3 spec and giving up the option for balanced operation just makes for 'complications' in hi-speed (hi-bandwidth/hi-frequency) transmission of digital data.
Which is why silver wire can help both AES3 and SPDIF, but in my experience the gap widens even further when using silver wire for this comparison as well.

JJ

 

Great, I have tea nervosa now. Thanks.


;D

 

I agree with the whole "spend your money on the best dac you can get sentiment" but I suspect that alot of people who chase the never slowing usb peripheral train are simply unhappy with their speakers/headphones. I loved the HD 650's for 10 years back when I powered them with a creek headphone amp lol. I've owned 6 pairs of speakers over the past 8 years and each time the sound signature change is drastic and completely dwarfs any differences I have ever gotten from changing my sources or amps.

But like I said, I agree that on the whole you should get the best sounding (according to you) dac you can get instead of planning to decrapify. The only reason to use usb is if you are into that dsd mess and if I were into that I would have some sort of dual setup going into the same dac (usb for dsd, something else for redbook). Something else is a Lynx, RME, or Digigram pci express card. I got mine for $200 used off ebay and they are on there all the time. Laptop folks should seriously think about building a small mini-itx system and adding a used pci-express card. You can do that for cheaper than buying a Mutec 3+ usb.

If anyone loves the smooth, smooth quiet storm sounds of the amber Regen, pm me and you can have mine. Just pay for shipping and slide me and extra $5 for packing at the ups store.

 

This thread needs an alternate title in the style of Rocky and Bullwinkle: "-OR- A Referendum on All Hobbies Taken to the Extreme"