Audeze LCD-R: Can We Use Ordinary Headamps? Music for the Masses

Discussion in 'Audio Science' started by purr1n, Dec 2, 2023.

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Should Audeze make the LCD-R with TRS phono jacks so audiophiles can use their ordinary amps?

  1. YES! Let us take the risks / let manufacturers qualify their amps with the LCD-R.

    30.8%
  2. MAYBE. Perhaps, but make customers sign a waiver and acknowledgement of the risks.

    20.5%
  3. HELL NO! Audiophile are too stupid to be trusted.

    48.7%
  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    A while back, Audeze released their ribbon LCD-R headphone to much fanfare: (https://www.audeze.com/products/lcd-r) The package was $2500 and included a Jotunheim-A, designed to drive the 2-ohm ribbon load. Generally, it's considered a bad idea to drive these kinds of loads from regular headphone amps because 2-ohms is pretty close to a short circuit. Maybe not as close as the RAAL ribbons at 0.2-ohms, but close enough to that, or far enough from today's super low Z planars at 8 or 15-ohms.

    IMG_1544.jpg

    Evidently, at a recent corpo audio show, the Schiit guys brought along the Audeze LCD-R, and reported that a lot of attendees loved the LCD-R with the amps that they brought, presumably Magni Unity, Mjolnir 3, a few others.


    What! The amps didn't blow up?

    No they were fine. People really loved the LCD-R.

    Show conditions right? Assuming people cranked it up slightly?

    It wasn't that busy, but it was cranked up more than we typically listen at. One guy tried to buy the LCD-R from us on the spot.

    Wait, doesn't the LCD-R come with a reverse 4-pin XLR so that it cannot be used with ordinary headamps as a safety measure?

    It was re-terminated to a regular TRS phono.

    What f**ktard did that?

    You did, don't you remember?

    Oh yeah, that's right. (I was testing stuff)


    So this got me thinking: was this safe to do? Then I realized that there were other transducers that were just above 2-ohms. The Campfire Audio IEMs. The reason the CFA IEMs don't explode amps is because they are super duper sensitive to the point where microvolts are all they need. I plugged in the CFA Ara IEM into the Magni Unity (high-gain) and noted that volume position range at which I felt comfortable, around 9am-10am. I then did the same with the Audeze LCD-R, and noted 9:30am to 10:30am on the volume knob was where I felt comfortable. Hmm, so it seems that the LCD-R is pretty darn voltage efficient. A little less sensitive than the Ara with a less bit lower impedance. (It should be noted that the CFA IEMs impedance does steadily increase as the frequency rises whereas the LCD-R remains a steady 2-ohms).

    I then proceeded to take measurements with the Magni Unity driving the LCD-Rs, at -20dBu and -30dBu. That would be 78mVrms and 25mVrms respectively. Yes, that's millivolts. For the load, I used the Audeze LCD-R. Yes, I used the headphone as the loud. FWIW, -20dBu produces roughly the same volume into the LCD-R as 0dBu (x10 more voltage) into the HD6xx (which is already hearing damage loud). I wanted to double check, to make sure were weren't clipping the Magni Unity (although clipping is just part of the story).



    Magni Unity
    High-Gain*
    -20dBu 1kHz
    Audeze LCD-R as load
    upload_2023-12-2_19-40-59.png

    Magni Unity
    High-Gain*
    -30dBu 1kHz
    Audeze LCD-R as load
    upload_2023-12-2_20-16-50.png

    *High gain typically measures worse, but usually sounds better.
     
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  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The next thing I did was put into a spreadsheet output level (dBu) -vs- load (ohms) to determine power output (mW). Yes, that's milli-watts. Knowing the wattage would give us a good idea how much current was being sucked, as power is proportional to current for any given voltage).

    Even though I knew not much power would be required because of how voltage sensitive the LCD-R were, I just wanted to see it for myself. Even though the LCD-R would be expected to be used at very low voltage levels, probably between -60dBu and -30dBu, I decided to go up to plot the math up to 6dBu out of curiosity.

    As we can see, higher impedance loads, like the Sennheiser HD6xx (300-ohms) barely make a dent with respect to power. Heck same thing for Grados and many orthos (most around 32-ohms). However, things start to change once we get below 20-ohms. By the time we get under 8-ohms, things turn SOUTH VERY QUICKLY. We can guess what happens if we push a few volts more: Pop! Smoke! And the smell of burning plastic! (And if the lid as off, pieces of plastic up on the ceiling).

    upload_2023-12-2_20-49-15.png
    1000mW at 2-ohms just under 2Vrms. Things go south quickly as we turn up the volume with lower impedance loads.

    I think this is the scary part. I doubt people are going to crank up the Audeze LCD-R to earsplitting levels, same as with the Ara IEM. However, doing so is just a little bit easier with full-sized headphones.

    That being said, I believe the Magni Unity. Magni+, and Heretic all have current sensing. You can try this yourself with cheaper cans, like the 15-ohm HFM HE400s. Just plug in a Loki, crank up the bass, and turn up the volume.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 3, 2023
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Next test. I'm not pushing it hard. Just -30dBu with a 37Hz signal. Left it like this for five minutes.

    LCD-R 2-ohm load
    -30dBu at 37Hz for 5 minutes
    Output relay
    FLIR_20231202_090807_424.jpg

    LCD-R 2-ohm load
    -30dBu at 37Hz for 5 minutes
    Output transistor
    FLIR_20231202_090754_477.jpg

    LCD-R 2-ohm load
    -30dBu at 37Hz for 5 minutes

    Power regulator
    FLIR_20231202_091321_324.jpg

    Commentary:
    • Temps for the output relay and regulators are "normal". At least compared to an HD600 driven with the same 37Hz tone, but at a higher voltage level (-10dBu).
    • Temps for the output devices are about 2 degrees hotter with the Audeze LCD-R @ -30dBu. The HD600 @ -10dBu are about 38-39C.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2023
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    OK, let's push it a bit. This time to -20dBu. In less than a minute, the temp reaches 46C. I bet they will settle around 50C. This probably isn't a big deal. I bet these transistors can get lot hotter. But we are starting to see big jumps in temps that the HD600 or even a 32-ohms ortho would almost never be capable of causing.

    FLIR_20231202_092938_050.jpg
     
  5. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Oh man, 14 year old me at science camp with a variac and breadboard embedded so many chips into the ceiling...

    edit: yes I did have safety goggles


    (after maybe the 3rd kaboom)
     
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    Last edited: Dec 3, 2023
  6. roshambo123

    roshambo123 Friend

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    This is a speakeasy situation. If a thing is desirable enough there's no need to advertise it, people will find their way there and take their own risks.

    The female 4-pin connection can easily be converted to TRS or male 4-pin XLR with a pigtail adapter or people can buy another cable with a different termination and if they blow their shit up they can't blame the manufacturer.
     
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  7. lagadu

    lagadu Almost "Made"

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    Interesting. When the Mjolnir 3 launched I wrote to Schiit about whether it would be ok to use it to drive the R and they flat out told me not to (including giving me an adaptation of that dumb FAQ quote about IEMs "Seriously, you want to run 2 ohm headphones on a 16-lb desktop amp?").

    Anyway, like I posted in the original thread: I've been too scared to try it with the Piety but the Oor drives the LCD-R beautifully though it doesn't fall into the "ordinary headamp" category.
     
  8. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    In the end, it's all about power. Unless we get to silly low sensitivities, most headphones are okay with milliwatts. The super low impedance of the LCD-R just means that the power needs to be delivered mainly by current, so we're observing ohmic losses across the power loop. The inner resistance of just about every component becomes critical and we're actually losing power because of it (hence the heating).

    P.S. Do you have an opamp-based headamp? Would be interesting to see what they do (better to keep the lid on).
     
  9. joch

    joch Friend

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    “Do as I say, not as I do.”
     
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Piety is low power. I am betting half the power of Magni Unity. It also doesn’t have the current sense and protection of Unity. I suspect it would be fine unless you accidentally slip on the volume control and turn the Piety into weld mode.

    Ferrum Oor is ordinary in the sense that it wasn’t designed to drive ribbons directly, although it’s got some hefty output. I’d still checkout the temps of the output transistors during a listening session with the LCD-R at typical volume levels.

    We are probably far from arc weld mode, but sustained high temperatures or creep are a worry.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2023
  11. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    This is where these tiny things, cables, connectors, solder joints, insulation, adapters start to matter. I suspect the higher distortion in the L channel (measurements above) is the result of such as opposed to any imbalance in the amp.
     
  12. Degru

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    I always thought this headphone shouldn't have too many issues with regular headphone amps in normal usage.. the non-standard termination is more for idiot-proofing (someone cranks the volume and blows up either the amp or the headphone and blames Audeze) than actual incompatibility with the load.

    I'd honestly see more issues using this with speaker amps as people have been doing, due to the extreme voltage sensitivity.
     
  13. Mr.Sneis

    Mr.Sneis Friend

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    The LCD-R was my top pick from our recent AZ meet. It was driven from a strange tube amp of Australian manufacture. https://www.mcchanson.com/.

    I think this is the amp: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/115706152401?hash=item1af09fc5d1:g:yS8AAOSwiYZj7AOZ

    Not sure if the amp was made specifically to specs or whatnot for LCD-R but in hindsight - really had me scratching my head about how it sounded so good out of a SET tube amp. I think the takeaway is there's no voodoo magic at play here; just misconception?

    The reliability of Audeze planars over the decades however still gives me serious pause, way moreso at the price level of the LCD-R or any of their big boy cans.
     
  14. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

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    That's a speaker amp designed for 4/8 Ohm loads.
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    No voodoo. My 45 custom has switch to use the 4-ohm taps. Studio B also has 4-ohm taps if you know where to connect at the Speakon jacks. Both amps are low gain, so mates well with LCD-R's super voltage sensitivity. The only issue would be with noise, but shouldn't be an issue if internal layout is good and quiet tubes are used. Finally, tube amps are indestructible, have gentler fail modes, and can be easily serviced. I had an ancient 45 tube that was shorted internally. All I needed to do was replace a cathode cap (it started spewing hot chemicals).
     
  16. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    I've long said that tubes are the older, saner sibling of MOSFETs. After having various MOSFET amps spew molten silicon at me, sometimes after perhaps imaginary slights (think ESD), and then seeing a tube go full red plate and just shrug it off...yeah, there you go.

    To contribute: probably not a problem to run LCD-Rs on most protected headphone amps. Ones using transparent current sensing and smart shutdown (via analog or digital means) are probably gonna be best-sounding and unfazed. Ones using current limiting old-skool 1970s style might sound like ass but won't go boom.
     
  17. roshambo123

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    @schiit, so you're bullish on the idea as an amp manufacturer, but if you were a 2-ohm headphone manufacturer, would you be as cavalier?
     
  18. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Just for fun, someone should build an amp that uses lightbulbs for fuses like the old school crossovers.
     
  19. Empyah

    Empyah Facebook Friend

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    *Senses the possibility(curiously hoping) that building your own tubes has crossed your mind... perfectly amp-matched tubes...*
     
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  20. M3NTAL

    M3NTAL Friend

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    "Audeze LCD-R: Can We Use Ordinary Headamps?" - @ PURRY

    Stupid question - why would we look at some of these other amps when the Jot-AYE and Jot-ARGH exists and also the RAAL transformer box (or homegrown) ?

    Variable transformer headamp ?
     

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