Audio Science Review Review

Discussion in 'Audio Science' started by purr1n, Aug 30, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,905
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Europe
    And the advertised chip is not the one inside the units, this Is an epic fail...the ones inside the units costs 1/3 than the advertised, what In the royal f...
     
  2. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    12,596
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Imagine the outrage Amir would drum up if Schiit advertised they were using opamp X and were found to be using opamp Y which is a third of the cost. And yet here it’s radio silence…
     
  3. Yethal

    Yethal Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Likes Received:
    230
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Poland
    From that same thread:

    I read a few pages of that thread. Some of their major contributors are downplaying the issue since at -100db it's likely inaudible and on one hand they're kinda right but at the same time it'd be pretty nice if they had the same energy when discussing manufacturers Amir doesn't shill.
     
  4. gepardcv

    gepardcv Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2015
    Likes Received:
    408
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Terra, Sol System
    Have we now reached an era in which Head-Fi moderation feels hands-off and easygoing — and its general membership well-informed and open-minded — in comparison to another popular audio forum? I think I saw some threads on HF over the last few months where references to other forums were not instantly deleted on the spot! I haven’t seen links to other forums, mind you, but let’s not go crazy here.
     
  5. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    May 28, 2017
    Likes Received:
    8,084
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Vancouver BC
    Yet if inaudibility comes up when discussing the relative merits of units that measure 0.0000001 rather than 0.0000003, those same people argue that because a unit can be engineered to achieve the smaller number, all engineering should be aiming at that number; and that the design with the smaller number is superior purely because of that. If they weren't such f'ing hypocrites, they'd apply the same philosophy to a design with (relatively) huge channel imbalances in distortion - whether it's there when playing music or not.

    Leaving aside - in this example and who knows how many more - the manufacturer's evident lies about the components used.

    It's been said even here that ASR's measurements, if viewed without fundamentalist fervor, can be useful general guides to how a product behaves. I can't subscribe to that. IMO all they do is promote a bullshit race-to-the-bottom philosophy, and they're so incomplete and often so inappropriate or downright careless (speakers, headphones) that they can be interpreted or promoted by the non-expert or shill as the one-and-only Objective (in the debased definition of the term that's used in this context) Truth.
     
  6. Yethal

    Yethal Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Likes Received:
    230
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Poland
    Additionally the units sent to Amir appear to be cherry picked given that people in that thread were unable to reproduce his test results.
     
  7. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    12,596
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    If inaudible issues at -100db really didn’t matter to that group, ASR wouldn’t exist.
     
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,911
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    This is getting very interesting. Something suspicious here. I'm getting totally different (much worse) than ASR for the Soncoz SGD1 DAC, which ranked at near the top of the ASR SINAD chart: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...ncoz-sgd1-vs-geshelli-jnog.10955/#post-347262
     
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,911
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    I could care less. We could care less. This is because we don't care about the difference between 0.0003% and 0.000015%. The OPA1612 is spec'd to the latter. The LME49720 is spec'd to the former.

    However, I find ASR folks giving Topping / SMSL a free pass a double standard. Imagine if this were any other non-Chi-Fi company or an American company that did this. They would crap on them so hard. Also, if you live by measurements, then you should die by them.

    I don't mind manufacturers' changing parts. It's part of real world practices because supply chains can be so unpredictable, even without COVID. However, if the manufacturer lives by measurements and advertises this, then they should also die by them.
     
  10. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    12,596
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    I don’t mind manufacturers changing parts, but if they’re advertising a certain part and they change that specific part, they should be alerting people to that change.
     
  11. dmckean44

    dmckean44 In a Sherwood S6040CP relationship

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,429
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Peoria, IL
    Obtaining a good review with cherry picked units and then switching to cheaper parts after it becomes popular sounds about right. This all stinks.
     
  12. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    5,345
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yet they sound different. The OPAs are more “voiced” as always and need special synergy to sound truly normal that non legendary manufacturers aren’t going to do.
     
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,911
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Yes, indeed. I am familiar with the sound of both opamps. They will make that SMSL whatever sound different.

    What really needs to happen is to have someone else test the top 25-50 DACs in Amir's SINAD chart, especially if they are the more dubious Chi-Fi brands that Amir has connections with: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...science-review-review.9827/page-8#post-316578

    Sorry, I don't trust the other "independent" Chinese guy with the AP-555 on ASR either.

    Let's do some real science: repeatability over time with different subjects. This is done for vaccines. This should also be done for audio gear.
     
    • Like Like x 10
    • Epic Epic x 1
    • List
  14. dmckean44

    dmckean44 In a Sherwood S6040CP relationship

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,429
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Peoria, IL
    It's unfortunate that Jude is the only guy with enough sway in the headphone community to do this but he lacks testicles so it will never happen.
     
  15. Brad358

    Brad358 New

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2020
    Likes Received:
    74
    Trophy Points:
    13
    Location:
    England
    Stuff like this is why it is so important to have transparent measurement protocols and standards. And for consumer products it is much better to test random samples bought from a regular sales outlet (or at least loaned from a source unlikely to be selecting a hand picked testing sample).

    For example ASR have gotten into a bit of a hole in the past because they weren't allowing for thermal changes, that wouldn't happen if it was clear what period of warm up and the state of equipment when tested was clear. Measurement is not just about buying a fancy tool, far from it.
     
  16. bilboda

    bilboda Florida boomer

    Pyrate Banned
    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2016
    Likes Received:
    834
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Miama
    Wait, they test vaccines?
     
  17. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    14,220
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    India
    ASR?
     
  18. Josh83

    Josh83 Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,375
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Charlottesville
    That’s exactly the existential issue that ASRers seems to be struggling with right now.

    [​IMG]

    The dilemma:

    [​IMG]


    It also looks like it’s even worse than initially reported. Well into the “do not recommend” Schiit multibit range. The horror!

    [​IMG]

    To think that hundreds of ASRers, including Amir, have been listening to DACs with third harmonics into the -70dB range and not once noticed! That should prompt some self-reflection, but it won’t.
     
    • Like Like x 10
    • Epic Epic x 7
    • List
  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,911
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Indexed as Case 9 in first box. Double standards or not?
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  20. gepardcv

    gepardcv Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2015
    Likes Received:
    408
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Terra, Sol System
    Who will try to contact SMSL (reference screenshot upthread)? If it’s a random ASR member, I’m not sure this is being taken all that seriously.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page