Audio Science Review Review

Discussion in 'Audio Science' started by purr1n, Aug 30, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ColdsnapBry

    ColdsnapBry Almost "Made"

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2021
    Likes Received:
    671
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    US/NZ
    I'm just wondering what's Amir's familiarity with music is at this point. I can put on my HD600 and instantly hear a change in snare drums and cymbals compared to my HD650. If I showed this to my buddy, who doesn't listen to music much and has seen a live band only a few times, he probably wouldn't be able to tell me the difference. Amir's preference to Mr Speakers headphones and measurement based DACs/AMPs first had me questioning. I've been down the path of Mr Speakers stuff and their headphones sound a bit overly dampened and not right, compound this with a common complaint of THX/Measurement equipment sounding dead.. Yea it just makes me wonder.
     
  2. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    12,629
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    What got me was one user asked him to replicate the test with new pads because it was clear that pads change the sound of the headphone and Amir replied with something like “Why do you care? Is all of your gear kept in like new from the factory condition?” I honestly don’t even know why he bothered measuring those headphones. Apparently he has a backlog of gear to test so huge it would make Peter North blush and yet he spent valuable time measuring two of the most frequently measured headphones on the planet in sloppy conditions and then declared they sounded the same despite the mountain of evidence that they don’t. I don’t even f'ing get it.
     
  3. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    14,478
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    India
    Familiarity with music is ruinous to true objective assessment. Damnit, he might even start enjoying it, and that would wreck the whole thing!
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Epic Epic x 2
    • List
  4. Brad358

    Brad358 New

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2020
    Likes Received:
    74
    Trophy Points:
    13
    Location:
    England
    In fairness I do think the biggest pitfall of the audio hobby is the risk that music becomes something people use for listening to equipment rather than equipment being a tool to facilitate increased enjoyment of listening to music (or spoken word).

    Does anyone think people over there have the self awareness to recognize the inherent contradiction and absurdity of claiming DACs and amplifiers are broken when nobody realized this until someone posted a measurement (i.e. there was no audible issue) and reacting with fury and venom, simultaneously with shouting down any heretics pointing out that you can measure differences between the HD650 and HD600 and that these differences are actually audible if doing a meaningful comparison (i.e. like for like and not some randomized comparison of a 20 years old model with a 2017 model with pads in who knows what condition)? Quite a few of their members do know what they're talking about and aren't idiots, but for some reason they go along with Amir and either say nothing or support his crazy outbursts. That is really rather sad and smells of a whacky cult.
     
  5. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    11,158
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    NOVA
    Home Page:
    I wonder what Axel Grell would have to say about Amir's "shocking" "objective" "reproducible" findings?
     
  6. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    12,629
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    He’d probably say “Who is Amir?”
     
  7. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    May 28, 2017
    Likes Received:
    8,268
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Vancouver BC
    Interesting to read that thread, though, as an insight into their philosophy if nothing else. They have a touching faith that EQ can solve all problems. Not only does that show they don't listen to headphones that much, but also it's amusing to see in a crowd that's so hung up about distortion.
     
  8. Roderick

    Roderick Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2018
    Likes Received:
    208
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Location:
    Finland
    Their faith in EQ is puzzling indeed. While ago Amir reviewed that $9 sony headphone and according to him when EQ'd that Sony is ”extremely accurate audiophile headphone” which for him beats majority of speakers. I actually bought those headphones and tested them with Amir's EQ settings.

    This was my experience after EQ:

    • With EQ soundstage became bigger. I think it might be because there is now more information in higher frequencies. Without EQ Sony sounds very muted. Even though soundstage got bigger imaging is still poor. Things feel cluttered. Sounds are either close or far with no distinct positioning.

    • Overall sound is much better, much clearer.

    • Some of the cup resonances are now gone/inaudible. My guess is that stock headphones are so recessed in some regions that it was easier to pay attention to extra sounds caused by the cups.

    • Despite sounding clearer everything except female vocals sounds quite veiled. I think Sony just has so slow transients that it can't completely be fixed with eq.

    • Treble has zero resolution. I'm not surprsised as drivers are covered with thick felt. It's not a felt you normally see on headphones. It's very dense. Reminds me of stuff you put on chairs legs so the floors don't get scratched. Also drivers are not angled as Amir speculated. Why he did not check it is beyond me. Removing the pads takes 2 seconds.

    • Bass is still bad. Measurements show extremely bad distortion but Amir disregarded it: ”I don't know how much to trust the low frequency distortions”. With some low bass notes drivers say ” PRTHLHPRPpppzzz” so that should be enough said.

    • With complex music lower midrange is affected by bass bleed.
    With EQ they're surely good for $9. What is the point though, I have no idea. For $25 one could get superlux HD681 or something else that can actually sound good with proper equalization.

    From my perspective praising eq'd Sony does not make much sense but it's a perfect fit for ASR narrative. Amir is the savior who, through ”science” guides misguided audiophile sheep towards a better sound. People also get to save money on the process, how cool is that! It's the same thing with dac's and amps. It appeals to lot of people.

    With ASR you get to:
    • Pay less.

    • Feel superiority when you got an extremely accurate audiophile headphone for $9. Hah, Laugh at those fools with their expensive Abyss headphones. It's a reversed audio elitism.

    • Get to side with the underdog. It's always so cool when a $100 topping dac is proven by ”science” to outperform $3000 competitors.
    Of course cheap stuff can be good. No doubt about it. ASR is just too out off touch with reality.

    Quote from Amir regarding Sony ZX110:
    "If I performed a blind test, I am pretty sure many people would think this is a high-end headphone."
    I believe that is true. And because of that Amir get's away with all the crap he does. Average person, or average ASR person could not distinguish eq'd $9 headphone from a proper one. Also that popular youtuber Oluv was astonished by eq'd Sony's. These sort of recommendations are not made for people with more experience. It's the same with all these youtube reviewers. It's very different from sbaf. I gain nothing from those youtube videos or from ASR's headphone reviews. I've been actively into headphones for 10 years, red about related matters for thousands of hours, owned about 200 headphones and here at sbaf I'm still regularly dumbfounded by the vast knowledge many people here have. Unfortunately people new to the hobby think that the forum with most members or youtuber with most followers is the best source of information. It's easier to become popular when your target audience is people who are new to the thing and still get exited about everything. And don't know enough to ask the akward questions when they're being fed snake oil disguised as science.

    I'm still not sure where's the beef in the frantic praise of equalization though. Comments like this make it seem like using eq is allmost personal matter for him.[​IMG]

    Maybe there is a new device in the making. Dac by topping/smsl with highest SINAD ever. A dac which will also include ability to play Amir's eq presets which can be bought and downloaded from ASR for a small fee ;)
     
  9. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    May 28, 2017
    Likes Received:
    8,268
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Vancouver BC
    I've been thinking of buying a pair of those myself - for a cheap headband on which to mount KSC75 drivers.
    Ah, right. Soundstage and other mumbo jumbo.
     
  10. netforce

    netforce MOT: Headphones.com

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2016
    Likes Received:
    3,172
    Trophy Points:
    93
    [​IMG]

    Got an email from Sennheiser this morning when I was inquiring about HD600 parts. Starting this month 600 series pads are changing. Needless to say I wonder how the new smooth pads measure vs the older pads.
     
    • Like Like x 16
    • Epic Epic x 1
    • List
  11. chakku

    chakku Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2015
    Likes Received:
    676
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    NZ
    Coincidentally just ordered new pads direct from Sennheiser for the 6XX yesterday, might have to email them and ask when they expect to get these new batches.
     
  12. Tekker

    Tekker Facebook Friend

    Banned
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2020
    Likes Received:
    133
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Netherlands
    I can feel my IQ drop reading that HD600/650 measurement thread on ASR. Amir and most members there definitely hit a new low of the stereotype.

    I hope most other people will now be realizing that their conclusions are a laughing stock, so they quickly lose credibility.
     
  13. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

    Pyrate Contributor Banned
    Joined:
    May 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,094
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Slow down pardner.

    Do it and tell us what they say please. Thanks
     
  14. netforce

    netforce MOT: Headphones.com

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2016
    Likes Received:
    3,172
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Small update, seems like there was a little bit of a run on the pads. Friend ordered 5 pairs on Wednesday which arrived today from Sennheiser direct:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    It appears he received the older matte finish:
    [​IMG]

    For reference, this is the pads he received last year from Sennheiser direct in October:
    [​IMG]

    Conclusion so far, the change was made quite recently and as a result the new pads have not yet been been entering the stock just yet. The older pads with how widely they have been in circulation will probably be around for stock for a while at least.
     
  15. chakku

    chakku Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2015
    Likes Received:
    676
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    NZ
    Just adding to the above I did get a response from Sennheiser:
    Obviously the headbands are already available as they're just the HD 650 ones but this just confirms the above that it will take a bit for them to transition with existing stock to be depleted first.
     
  16. Wooder Ice

    Wooder Ice New

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2021
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Looks like the dude who brought up the issue of SMSL gaming Amir's 1K SINAD testing is now self-removed from ASR after going back and forth with the Topping engineer dickhead for a few days. The moderator is threatening to close the entire thread on the issue.

    #516
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    90,539
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Live by measurements, die by measurements, circle jerk around measurements.

    Seriously, a small IMD hump of a few db in the middle of the range? Who Fing cares? I'll be the first to say that it's interesting academically, but otherwise this is what I have to say: losers.

    Still: live by measurements, then die by them. Don't be that fake holy man that says one thing and does the other.
     
  18. BarnBurner

    BarnBurner Acquaintance

    Joined:
    May 24, 2021
    Likes Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    New England, USA
    Today on ASR a cultist was berating a new member who asked a question about tonal differences between components, demanding he PROVE he heard a difference, and unless he abx'd blah blah he was basically hallucinating. Now even the idea of TONAL DIFFERENCES of components is heresy. Design, topology, parts, nothing matters because amir has charts that already describe the entire universe of audibility in toto and anyway chromecast audio is objectively the most perfect component ever made because sinad, etc etc etc.
     
  19. MrMumbly

    MrMumbly New

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2021
    Likes Received:
    68
    Trophy Points:
    13
    Location:
    Texas
    There was also a challenge issued to provide published research that counters the ASR belief everything in audio can be measured. The keyboard warrior ASR cult has become unbearably arrogant, aggressive, and self indulgent. I wonder when the minions will turn on Amir for his ownership of well over $75K of audio equipment. Others that are quick to attack non-believers have let slip ownership of some very expensive equipment. Amir and his minions talk the talk, but do not walk the walk.

    There is ZERO credibility at ASR.
     
  20. bboris77

    bboris77 Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Likes Received:
    778
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Without getting too complicated, I will repeat what I have said before about the belief that everything that measures the same MUST sound identical by definition. If one truly believes this, they can just get a Modi/Magni or Atom Amp/DAC for $199 and simply concentrate on buying the best possible transducers. No need to argue with others who prefer DACs and AMPs that add their own flavour.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page