Dune (Denis Villeneuve)

Discussion in 'Random Thoughts' started by purr1n, Oct 22, 2021.

  1. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    They banned all computers and things digital in a crazy jihad so crazy mutant junkies for space acid calculate how to fold space. The Lynch movie is far better at explaining this.

    The Dennis Villehardouin movie explains nothing.
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n On vacation

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    Paul was not only trained by Josh Brolin / Picard and Aquaman on surprise occasions, but was trained in Space-Nun Kung-Fu by his mommy. The former was shown in the film in one scene, the latter not really - or not at all. Think finesse (Paul) over wildness (Jamis). Also Jamis has not in a good mental state during his duel. In the book he was super peeved that Paul disarmed him and Jessica Kung-Fu'd Stilgar. Jamis was respected as a warrior, but never slated to be leader material because of his inability to control his passions. Chani also gives Paul a few tips on how Jamis fights, which in the book Paul takes advantage of.

    The film doesn't show how Paul is worried because he's used fighting with shields. Paul basically goes defensive but with counterattacks which are all too slow because he's used to shields. However Jamis think's Paul is just fucking with him. The film does do some justice showing Paul getting the best of Jamis - asking him to yield - but not killing him. There is where the major difference lies. Stilgar and Jamis in the book think Paul is messing with Jamis because of his slow counters (because Paul is used to shields). In the film Stilgar thinks Paul is messing with Jamis because Paul keeps besting Stilger several times asking him to yield - when their way it battle to the death.

    Finally, there's a bit the book about "Fear is he mind-killer" Space-Nun training, meditational mantra, and all that. In the book when Stilgar explains to Paul that their fights are to the death, Jamis sort of freaks out because Jamis realizes he may very well likely die because Paul is actually a good fighter, not just some scrawy kid. It's not that Paul isn't afraid. It's just that Paul can control his fear and focus FTW.

    This is one of those things that is difficult to translate into the big screen. Part of the problem is that Villeneuve made it even more difficult to get with his own spin on the toying with Jamis thing.

    Chalamet is wimpy and has played too many dreamy roles, so that certainly didn't help. Chalamet should have been put into a physical training regime. I didn't like Jamis being cast a black guy either because it's too close to the very wrong stereotype of the angry black man who can't control his shit.

    They are the mouths of the megaship transporters, the Spacing Guild Heighliners. Wasn't really explained. The Spacing Guild operates all interstellar travel in universe. Grossly mutated humans who breath in spice day in and day out serve as the Navigators because only they have ESP abilities to navigate / warp through the stars because computers and calculators are illegal in this world because of an AI war thousands of years before.

    The film is dark, so it looks like space rings rather than an opening into a ginormous ship.
    FireShot Capture 002 - HBO Max - play.hbomax.jpg

    A lot of the stuff in the books is still there in Villeneuve's film. What he does is move on and not allow the viewer to dwell on them. This can either be a good thing or bad thing. Your problem is that you are thinking too much!
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2021
  3. Tachikoma

    Tachikoma Almost "Made"

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    The lady Jessica I had built up in my head from the books was waaay cooler than the way the movie depicted her. Is the litany against fear supposed to be said out loud?
     
  4. roshambo123

    roshambo123 Friend

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    If you are piloting a Heighliner does that make you Captain Heighliner?

    Ever been to space Billy?
     
  5. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    She’s a psychotic overprotective witch mom whose kids end up being mass murdering pieces of work. Billions of people dead. All other religions exterminated like Theodosius. Herbert wasn’t unread.

    The Dune 2021 trailers even gave Paul golden armor like Mordred from Excalibur in his visions but they toned down the color for the film. Oh and Mordred in Excalibur only has like 4 lines and exhudes more menace in nipple armor like George Clooney Batman than anyone in Dune. That would have been a cooler shoutout that simply aping the shot of the plane in the Wadi Rum from Lawrence of Arabia with a fake cartoon plane.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2021
  6. BarnBurner

    BarnBurner Acquaintance

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    I was about to say that Jason Mamoa sure got fat :p
     
  7. Boops

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    It also seemed to me the film was suggesting that Paul is having some pre-vis hallucinations of ways the fight with Jamis might go when he is chilling over by the rocks just before. I read this as him getting some kind of advantage which he was able to capitalize on since he would have seen what Jamis was going to do before he did it. But that could just be my reading of it.
     
  8. CEE TEE

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    ^I was actually regarding that pre-vis hallucination as the buddhist "thou art" philosophy of "you are not separate but same"...destroying your enemy is the same as destroying yourself. So killing Jamis is no "feat to celebrate" but sad and equal to being killed himself. This served to reframe the conflict. The additional voice prompting him was the tip in the scales to have Paul take the life rather than offer his own.

    How was this presented in the book?
     
  9. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    You’re thinking too hard about incompetent film making. Paul in the book is not a wimp so he just kills him in his gang initiation to join Stilgar’s warband.
     
  10. AdvanTech

    AdvanTech Friend

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    You’re thinking too hard about entertainment.
     
  11. oldschool

    oldschool Acquaintance

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    I am enjoying this thread more than the movie
     
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  12. purr1n

    purr1n On vacation

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    I thought about that angle with the film, but the film didn't portray this, at least not to the extent that Tom "the Last Samurai" Cruise did with this previz sword-fighting.

    The book's angle on prescience were as follows: that they were not necessarily accurate; that by simply having visions could change the future; that if one knew what was going to happen, one could be bound by it (explored in later books). Prescience was focused on events and outcomes, less previz for death sports.

    Jamis was killed rather unceremoniously like many other deaths. Jamis jumped on top of Paul while switching his blade to a different hand. This was something Chani warned Paul that Jamis would do. Paul also recalled one of Picard's lessons on to watch the knife, not the hand. Paul also noticed clumsy footwork on the part of Jamis when he lands - thereby Paul side-stepps Jamis' attack and plunges his knife into Jamis' chest.

    No spiritual buddha voices. Paul just kills the dude, aided by his training and tips from Chani. Not that the latter really mattered much as it was more Jamis freaking out that made things rather easy for Paul.
     
  13. Josh Schor

    Josh Schor Friend

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    I enjoyed the movie and it was the book altered with much left out. Still all in all it was a good movie if you forget about the book and just watch it. Maybe the sequel if they make it will be more accurate.
     
  14. oldschool

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    The entire script was written all at once, so I doubt it. Also, I think the second part is more difficult to translate to the big screen. The first one is more straightforward somewhat.
     
  15. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    IIRC, Paul and Leto II both saw multiple possible futures and certain actions, once taken, reduced possibilities, and if either wanted they could live entirely by the path they saw at the expense of virtually any free will. Paul tried to break out of this by deliberately sidestepping particular futures while Leto embraced one specific future that was intended to break humanity out of the chains set by prescient individuals.
     
  16. Boops

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    As a newcomer to Dune I must say the names are really good. Paul Atreides, Baron Harkonnen, sisters of the Bene Gesserit, etc. Its hard to come up with evocative, non-stupid-sounding sci-fi names and I am really loving Herbert’s take on naming. For every Duncan Idaho (wha?) there are ten other cool-as-shit names.
     
  17. roshambo123

    roshambo123 Friend

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    I like them also. The names draw pretty straight lines to their inspiration which is better than a lot of the cringe-worthy sci-fi names you get in some universes.

    Atreides = -ides is a Greek suffix which is also Roman sounding. Recalls honor and tradition
    Harkonnen = Swedish sounding evil norse "barbarians"
    Bene Gesserit = ie. Beni is Arabian, recall Beni Salem featured in Lawrence of Arabia? Mysterious nomads
    Arrakis = pretty obvious homophone of "Iraq" and whaddya know it's a sand planet
    Duncan Idaho = I'd have personally gone with Starbucks Washington but then again this was written awhile ago
     
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  18. CBC

    CBC Rando

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    Atreides=house of Atreus, i.e. Agammemnon, Menelaus, and their descendants. There’s a pretty good epic called The Iliad that features these guys if anyone is interested. ;)

    I previously understood ‘bene gesserit’ as being Latin ‘bene’ = ‘well’ + ‘gesserit’ = future perfect of ‘gero’ = ‘to carry or conduct’ , so something like “she will have done well” taking into account that the bene gesserit are all women and their long term project. That goes back to when I was reading Latin and the Dune books were fresher for me. But then, you know how you bend everything to what you’re into when you’re in your twenties, so maybe I was misunderstanding that. I haven’t studied classics for two plus decades.

    Duncan Idaho is just funny, but I tend to cut people some slack when they’ve made something as rich as the Dune series. It’s better than the novels I’ve written (which is none).
     
  19. Boops

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    Dumb Dune question: are all the “people” we see in the movie meant to be descended from humans from earth who have colonized space over the millennia? Or are some of them supposed to be human-shaped “aliens” that are indigenous to their homeworld planets?
     
  20. AdvanTech

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    They originated from Earth. I believe no evidence of aliens was found.
     

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