EC Studio

Discussion in 'Eddie Current' started by Negura, Oct 17, 2015.

  1. TMoney

    TMoney Shits on SBAF over at Head-Case to be cool

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    Hmm... makes me wonder what the rationale was behind the 600Ω input impedance transformers instead of something higher was.
     
  2. Bourne Perfect

    Bourne Perfect Friend

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    So what are you gonna do: new ITs, or new dac?
     
  3. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Not a foremost expert in audio, but indeed I think typical input impedances are in the 10k range. Lower impedance may be a concern if the DAC has output coupling capacitors in the output (maybe to deal with bias stuff) which together with the input impedance of the amp might result in a low pass filter with a somewhat high cut off... i.e. there goes the bass.

    But not 100% sure, and I'm not sure if most DACs in general (low end or not) use output coupling capacitors, or similar.
     
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  4. TMoney

    TMoney Shits on SBAF over at Head-Case to be cool

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    That could possibly explain why I head Findley's Studio as being bass light... or it could just be a coincidence.
     
  5. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Dunno. This is what google further says about it, and sort of make sense:

    If the input impedance is too high then there might be some noise pick up issues. If it's too low, then the DAC may have to push too much current. Sweet spot for many seems to be 10K.

    600 ohms seems to have appeared due to impedance matching for telecom stuff (km runs of cable), which may have been burrowed in studio equipment (or not) in the beginning.

    What DAC was used?
     
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    The 600 ohm stuff is common in pro / Studio gear. Craig came from UREI / JBL (they made / make pro stuff) so he was thinking along those lines for a TOTL amp. The 600 and 15k transformer are similar, other than the 600 being a little bigger physically with better noise rejection and phase response at the top end. Craig picked the best transformer that he knew of for the job. We didn't have any issues with the balanced outputs from a Gungnir or earlier Yggdrasil unit as well with a few other DACs. In fact, an early prototype of the Studio (before it was named such) was shown at CanJam last year.
     
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  7. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Has nothing to do with it. If anything, it would be warmer sounding because transformers, no matter how good, tend to have less than stellar distortion characteristics down low.

    Typical tube amps' bassyness, warmth, or lushness is mostly distortion. I measured the Studio's bass distortion in a post on CS somewhere. It's amazingly low for a transformer coupled tube amp.

    The vintage american 2A3s also tend to be brighter / leaner than than some of the Chinese and possibly the EML tubes. For less bass lite, I would suggest the ZDS with Sylvania 6SL7-WGT brown base or EC BA with 300B (more bass and more lush). Another alternative would be to use a bassier source. My SFD-1 MKII SE+ DAC will certainly bring out the bass. Maybe even a Gungnir MB (use the SE out) might be a better bet compared to an Yggdrasil which has been on for just a few hours.

    I've been warning people to stay away from the Studio because it is going to be darn neutral and not bassy, warm, lush like most other tube amps. But people always seem to want what "people say is the best" and never listen.

    Personally, I feel the Studio paired a bright headphone like the HD800 is a fucking disaster. (Actually, I think almost any amp with Zout < 2-3 ohms paired with the HD800 is a fucking disaster.) Others, who are more willing to acclimate to the HD800's brightness, feel that the pairing is fantastic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2016
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    P.S. There is a way to increase bass on the Studio. But I'm not saying.
     
  9. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I think The Merv is right.

    Consider the schematics of the PCM5242 EVM (figure 7) and the DEM-PCM/DSD1792/4 (figure 2-4) which are hi-fi-ish TI audio DAC reference designs:

    http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/slau592a/slau592a.pdf
    http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/sleu037/sleu037.pdf

    The outputs have no in series coupling capacitors I could see. It may be that the coupling capacitors are typically expected at the input or/and output of the amp design.

    Therefore, the main capacitance I would expect may come from the DAC to Amp interconnect which I think affects the high frequencies (instead of the low end) since I think that is modeled as a cap from ideal cable to ground. Which agrees with the idea that the longer the cable, the lower the bandwidth. However, we are talking a few ft of cable for interconnects, not 15 km as in phone lines or maybe some crazy stuff at the studios. In other words, I think there is bandwidth to spare unless ones DAC is two cities away from ones Amp.

    So I would expect little to no impact (low end or high end) with 600 ohms.

    Here is an article I googled and helped me understand were the 600 ohm "standard" originally came from:

    https://www.fmsystems-inc.com/index.cfm?tdc=dsp&page=publication_detail&pid=94

    It's just and article, but so far it seem reasonable to me. End of the day, for audio DACs it seems it's not power delivery, but voltage and signal integrity delivery that maters. The higher the input impedance of the amp the better the signal integrity in terms of frequency response, but w/o coupling caps and with reasonable short runs of cable, 600 ohms don't seem bad at all to me, and it may have lower noise pick up advantages.

    It is therefore likely that the warmer sound may be due to distortion, and not low frequency signal loss indeed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2016
  10. BioniclePhile

    BioniclePhile The Terminal Man - Friend

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    Turn the volume up? :p
     
  11. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Reduce feedback from the tertiary winding from about 1.5db to 1db or even less. I had forgotten about this. Thus will increase apparent bass.

    Of course the standard disclaimers apply: warranty void, no user serviceable parts, shock hazard, possible death, etc.
     
  12. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex Grumpiest admin

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    This should be a factory option for $200, the Studio XBE - XTRA BASS EDITION
     
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  13. BioniclePhile

    BioniclePhile The Terminal Man - Friend

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    So much for not saying. You should've just taken a bass-modded studio to a meet and see what people'd think.
     
  14. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I think most people may have preferred that. Keep in mind the amp is named the Studio, not the BassReflexo, LushyCurtain, or MuddyWaters.

    Besides, there are the BA and ZDS.
     
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  15. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex Grumpiest admin

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    FWIW, I thought the amp was quite lovely at Adam's place. I really enjoy the ridiculous clarity.
     
  16. BioniclePhile

    BioniclePhile The Terminal Man - Friend

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    Remember that $0 amp you had in the works and killed? Now you've got to make a new design with one of the aforementioned names.
     
  17. BioniclePhile

    BioniclePhile The Terminal Man - Friend

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    It sure is a hell of a looker. A few thousand bucks out of my price range, but maybe the Jr. Or whatever it'll be called will fit. (If it has speaker taps) *nudgewink*
     
  18. Koth Ganesh

    Koth Ganesh Friend

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    Well, there is always the Studio Jr. if you dont want to mess with the Studio.
     
  19. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Could you guys just shove a resistor in series on the Yggdrasil outputs (or studio inputs, whatever) to drop the current flow or would that mess with the input behavior?

    edit: durr, I guess that's basically just forming a divider with the input impedance, arglebargle carry on
     
  20. Lojay

    Lojay Friend

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    Marv, I suppose your comments about the HD800 and Studio combo being a disaster only concerns the unmodded HD800? My ears are accustomed to the EC445 driving the HD800 (modded) so I don't suppose this will be a problem for me?
     

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