MDHT Havana 2 - Tube DACs vs. SS

Maybe we can convert this thread to be for "MHDT Labs Multibit Tube DACs" and cover all their DACs here?

I just bought an MHDT Labs Atlantis and it'll be on the way across the ocean tonight!

I'm also picking up a Western Electric 369A/2C51 for it.

 

MDHT Meet Results
As with all meets, the list of goals are always larger than the results given time limitations. My SS vs. Tube DAC was limited and unfair, and our tube rolling was almost abandoned. We met from 1pm to 7pm, but 6 hours are never enough. The room was filled with other very interesting experiments that we took part in as well from a DSD optimized setup to cable rolling to an HD800 optimized setup that resulted in stellar SQ for the HD800 far beyond what I have heard before. We will likely be meeting again to take our MDHT observations further.

Credits: The three organizers of this event were "Soundsgoodtome", "EricR", and myself. I will be copying their results as I get them into this thread to add supporting or contradictory data points.

We are still working on collective results as a team, but I thought I would get my impressions down here to show what I learned from the experience.


http://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/1558475/


http://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/1558476/

Impressions:

MDHT Family: The MDHT family we lined up was the Paradisea 3 on top of the stack, my Havana 2 in the middle, and the Pagoda on the bottom. They were in a stack using a switch to be able to AB back and forth. Unfortunately, we ran into several issues were the switch didn't work so we AB'd from the Audio-GD SA31SE amp. We were only able add two DACs at a time so we had to switch wires to go to the third. The AMP also had a few second delay so the AB was not instantaneous.

1. Looks: The Havana 2 and the Paradisea had the same chassis where the Pagoda was bigger with beefier internals.
2. Different Voltage Outputs: We determined that the three DACs also had different output voltages which required volume matching. The Pagoda had the highest requiring 10 volume clicks down to match the others while my Havana required a couple more clicks down going to the Paradisea.
3. Same Family Signature: Using the same Bendix tube, we found that at first listen, the three DACs sounded the same. However, with a longer listen it felt like the Paradisea had a softer more euphonic signature while the Pagoda was at the analytical detailed side of the signature with the Havana fitting perfectly in the middle as a compromise. Make no mistake, this is a Tube DAC and even the Pagoda had the tube euphonics, but it was wider and more detailed by a hair than the Havana which was wider and more detailed by a hair than the Paradisea. The other noticeable difference was that the Pagoda stood out as having the best bass. However, that was contradicted by a tube roll on the Havana vs. the bendix in the Pagoda.
4. Tube Rolling: While I failed to participate in any significant tube rolling, I did get a chance to hear briefly a 6SN7 tube played in my Havana using an adapter made by Jeremy that makes the Ember. On brief listen, I found that the 6SN7 tube gave me more/better bass than the Pagoda with the Bendix tube. I will have to get the adapter myself to check a little more into that tube. The others may have rolled some tubes, but I don't believe that they used my tubes so it would be independent of my tube rolling results above with the exception of the Bendix that we all have. I find that this is the area that we would likely differ in our opinions as this is a very personal preference dependent area.
5. Value: This is also a very opinion based area so I can only provide info IMO. If I was to go SS DAC and wanted to retain my Tube DAC capabilities, I would probably down scale to the Paradisea at $300 and put more into the SS side that is the weaker side. My feeling is that the sub $1K SS DACs are either musical/fun (Wolfson) or analytical (Sabre) pulling their detail from enhanced brightness. I hate brightness and could not live with a lessor SS DAC other than the Wolfson - which I already have - which I feel misses a lot of detail. The first really good SS DAC that I have heard is the Yggdrasil which is significantly more expensive than the Havana 2. So in conclusion, the Paradisea is fun and tuby for that mood or to use as a sudo preamp to flavor my speakers, and that would save me funds to put toward the Yggdrasil.

• Is the Havana a worthwhile step up from the Paradisea? Yes, if you want the audiophile detailed sound quality on top of a euphonic signature.
• Is the Pagoda a worthwhile step up from the Havana 2? Yes, if you want big bass and are a sound stage freak that wants as wide as they can get.
• Who should just get the Paradisea? Those that want to enjoy their music and don't care about getting every last ounce of detail. This is also a great second DAC for those with the high end DACs that want to just enjoy sometimes or like the versatility of tube rolling to optimize their setup.

Tube DAC vs. SS DAC: This was limited to the Yggdrasil vs. the Havana 2 and not an AB testing. The Havana was tied to the Audio GD for the MDHT linup testing and my BW was moved to the Yggdrasil to see how the performance differs. So I am basing this off of memory, but the results are so obvious that nobody could argue otherwise- the Yggdrasil wins. Obviously this is not a fair comparison given the price difference. Also, I can guess at the results of the other Schiit DACs based on my limited listening experience. As noted at the beginning of this thread, I started moving from Schiit products to stop my ears from bleeding due to overly bright signatures that push details. I am a firm believer that a DAC done right should be rich in detail and sound stage clues without being bright - getting out of the way of the music, and not hold an artificial microscope to analyse non-musical characteristics. I want to tap my foot and hear/feel the beat and the singers emotion, but don't care if the drummer farts or that there are people in the front row talking about politics.

1. Moving Target: What exactly am I comparing as the Havana 2 sounds different depending on the tube used. This makes it hard to compare SS vs. Tube. On the other hand, it gives an unfair advantage to the Tube DAC as it can be optimized in advance for the AMP and for the HPs. So round 1 goes to the Tube DAC for versatility of optimization.
2. Again, Moving Target: Because the tube dac is so heavily optimized to the previous setup, it sounds weird with new source equipment. Going from my Mjolnir to my EC BW, the SQ was off and had to be revamped to fit the signature of the BW. It now sounds great, but I am still curious about how far my BW can scale with the right chain. I don't think I will ever know as new tubes change everything and there is little opportunity to hear tubes without a purchase first. Round 2 goes to SS given that I will immediately show what a new AMP can do vs. an old amp. No second guessing tube choices here.
3. Lessor DACs: (Opinion, not tested directly) Having gone through a large number of DACs personally and in meets, I have found that there is always compromise under $1 to $2 grand. Do we want bright detail, or soft musicality? Lessor DACs and some of the expensive ones make my ears bleed to eek out detail which I cannot handle. Yes, the Bifrost Multibit is 90 percent of the Gungnir Multibit which is 90 percent of the Yggdrasil - but the Yggdrasil is in a different class which is musical without ear bleeding characteristics. I know a lot of you will disagree with the bright Bifrost Multibit/Gungnir Multibit statement, so maybe i am just more sensitive to treble than others. So IMO, the Bifrost Multibit and Gungnir Multibit are in a lower class than the entire MDHT lineup for those that treasure musicality. I would rather have the Paradisea than the Gungnir Multibit personally, but maybe i stand alone - i accept that. I think that the HDHT lineup is a bargin in the $2K down DAC area for the enjoyment that they provide.
4. Greater DACs - Yggdrasil vs. Havana 2: Bottom line, the Yggdrasil kicked the Havana's butt bad. The Havana is certainly holding my EC BW down in performance. Don't get me wrong, the Havana/BW setup is stellar providing me with hours of euphoria, but with the Yggdrasil, the BW is a whole other beast. Wow, the BW has a tubey sound quality already, so it pairs nicely with the Yggdrasil's neutral signature. The additional detail, sound stage, and musicality was immense. With the Havana, I am still fussing to get it right, with the Yggdrasil, I would be done and just enjoying.

If we are lucky, I may be able to get the other participants to add their thoughts, impressions, and contrasting opinions here.

 

Looks like Andrew/Soundsgoodtome is organizing a tour of his MHDT Stockholm V2.

@Hands you should jump in on it.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/797275/tou...j-r2r-d-a-chips-bendix-2c51-tube-24-192-input

 

I thought @purrin would like to hear Stockholm 2 also, so this might be a good time so we will know where the Stockholm 2 placed in the DAC chart of awesomeness.

 

I know that soundsgoodtome would love to have some seasoned members on the tour to give it a good review with comparisons to other good DACs. Everyone should hear at least one of the MDHT lineup to see how musical and versatile a DAC can be. SS DACs in this price range typically find their detail through thin and sterile brightness, so the tube DAC displaying toe tapping emotion and texture is a real departure from the norm. The best part is that you can change the output completely through tube rolling to go brighter/thicker or bassy/mid-focused, or optimized to a specific HP. This makes it feel like you have a range of DACs all in one chassis. While I would like to eventually get a Yggdrasil too, I will never let go of my Havana 2 as it is that good.

BTW, I use the Havana 2 to feed my speakers (Maggies) in my theater room as well when I want to add that euphoric quality during a music night with the family. This is something the Yggdrasil cannot do. The added value is huge and obvious to the whole family. With my Maggies being power hungry eating 800 watts from my Rotel amp, a tube amp doesn't make much sense. However, I hear that the EC ZD can be used the same way as a preamp which I hope to try one day.

 

Created a dedicated thread to my new MHDT Labs Atlantis. NOS R-2R tube DAC using AD1862N-J chips.