SBAF DAC Talk II

Good to know. Thanks. Yeah, a lot to do with the implementation. I'm guessing Bricasti and Dangerous get a lot out of the chip. I wouldn't be surprised if Cambridge go for "British" with everything they make. But if they're working with a good chip, it might be worth a demo.

Much obliged.

 

I'm pretty familiar with the Cambridge 851D, which I believe, is very similar to 851N internally (in the places where it counts). I've also heard the 851N, many times, but not at home in my own setup unlike the 851D. However, I'd dare to say they sound very similar. Either way, below you'll find some impressions of the 851D. At the time I used it as a both DAC and preamplifier into my Genelec 8030b monitors. Source was a desktop computer, connected with an usb cable. ASIO was used whenever possible (CD rips from Foobar2000, flac) and other times lossless music was played from Tidal.

The 851D is a clean sounding, digititus free dac with a neutral tone. Detail retrieval is mediocre... as are the dynamics (both micro and macro). Timbre is slightly off, I guess because it lacks the dynamic finesse to represent sudden volume changes convincingly, but it doesn't sound irritating or outright bad neither. I guess the presentation could be described as slightly soft or mushy and it would be better paired with something that has a lively soul. The 851D is a kind of thing that doesn't draw any kind of attention to itself, which isn't necessarily a bad trait, but I personally prefer a different kind of presentation.

Dangerous Music Convert-2, which uses the same AD1955 converter chip, sounds different in many ways, though it shares the lack of digititus. Convert-2's timbre, like 851D's, doesn't have any nasties either and with improved dynamical capabilities and detail retrieval it sound much more lifelike. But unlike the 851D, the Convert-2 demands your attention and usually also grabs it now matter what, with your permission or not. In a way, I'd understand if someone said the 851D sounds more "natural" than the Convert-2 (especially considering system matching and downstream components), but that comes with expense of (almost) every technicality you could think of.

So, no, at least I wouldn't call the 851D a "mini Convert-2", they are just too different. Two different kind of visions, which both share some common components.

 

I own one in my main 2ch rig.
It is a transparent dac faithful to the recording.
No more no less.
It's kind of benchmark sound but without sounding cold or analytical but not warm either.
Tonality is even and balanced with treble done right without artifacts or digitus.
Bass slams hard without bloat and over dynamics are great.
Plenty of detail without thrown in your face and sound stage is wide with pinpoint accuracy.
Presentation is holographic and 3d layered.
Much better than a lot of other dacs I have heard and get hyped here and there.
I guess that it is not owned / mentioned often because it is kind of mainstream brand which is out of fashion.
Functionality is pretty decent and the street price now is good.

BTW - Analogue stage of 851N is very slightly different from 851C/D with also minor differences to the supply stage.

Used to own 851C and it's sound was more clinical compared to 851N.

 

Cheers @Sonorus and @Collusion Yeah, the Cambridge is a pretty mainstream unit. I've gotten pretty esoteric with some of my other stuff (just added a Garrard 401), but for a streamer I just sort of want something that works out of the box. I've been using the Bluesound Node 2i and basically like the interface, but find its DAC lacking. I've moved my Gungnir Multibit into the 2ch rig, but I think it's a little too dark going through my tube pre and SET power amps. Even with the Klipsch Forte IIIs that are the end of the chain. So brighter/flatter with the DAC section might not be a bad thing.

And, maybe its frivolous, but I sort of want a screen to show album art/titles with my streamer. I thought about incorporating an old iPad or something into my rack, but it looks weird to me. I'd love to add a touch screen to a Pi-based streamer, but don't see much out there on how to do that fairly easily/with limited DIY skills.

Anyway, I've also got an RME ADI-2 on loan, so having fun already comparing to the Gungnir Multibit. I find I have to listen very closely to pick DACs apart. It's mostly a fatigue thing for me. So if the Azur streamer has a decent app and sounds good, it might just stay. It also has digital outs (including an AES out), so it could feed a DAC, too. But one-box would be good.

Thanks again for the feedback/impressions as I wade (slightly) into the mainstream.

 

Just for more info if that matters , i used to own Gymby A1 and i had a two month loaner of RME.
I prefer by great margin the 851N.
Of course that is just personal taste!

 

Curious about this myself too, since I'm wondering what should be my next NOS DAC. Preliminary reports seem to suggest that both products ave been received fairly well by trusted members here.

 

This is definitely one to check out @songmic.

 

The more I listen to the Bifrost 2, the more I think it has the kind of tonality and timbre I want, but something about it feels too... normal. When I listened to the Yggdrasil, the staging and layering and placement of sounds was just really impressive, something I can't quite get out of my head. In comparison, the Bifrost 2 has a similar thing going on but neutered. In contrast though, the tonality of the Yggdrasil is just too odd for me, and I'm not sure I'm willing to put in the effort to recalibrate my system into working with it.

In other words, I'm curious if anyone knows of anything that might sound similar to the Bifrost 2, but taken a tier higher. Better staging, better layering, sharper transients, etc. I'm happy that I've come pretty close to finding the sound I want in a DAC, but also slightly frustrated that I'm simply not as close as I wish I was. Or maybe I should just stop worrying about this kind of stuff and enjoy audio for once. Thoughts?

 

Sounds like what you are looking for could be achieved by switching over to a good coaxial source like Pi2AES or something similar. Paging @Hands and @famish99

 

@animus I'd say check out the Pi2AES threads, there are a bunch of users running Bifrost 2 with it and some users have noticed noticeable differences in presentation. I find the Schiit DACs definitely need sources with great clocks to do their best.

 

A really dumb question, perhaps... But, given the recent excitement about the Bifrost 2, I have to ask: Is the Yggdrasil (SE) still considered the (rather/much) better DAC? I'm thinking of the Yggdrasil GS compared to the Bifrost 2. I'd be using the Yggdrasil through SE outs mostly. Thanks, and apologies for the potentially tedious A vs B question.

 

No, comparable. Slight edge to bifrost 2.

 

Interesting. I've been finding my Gungnir MB (Gen 5, SE outputs) a bit lacking in my two-channel rig lately, so have been auditioning other DACs. Right now I've got loaners of...

RME ADI-2: A really nice piece--I basically agree with what the prevailing reviews say about it--but just a touch too neutral for me. I find it good on micro-dynamics and detail. It makes the Gungnir MB sound a bit mushy in both resolution and in the bass. But the Gungnir Multibit is better tonally.

Cambridge Audio Azur 851N: Very similar sounding to the RME with just a touch more warmth up top. Maybe a bit deeper stage, too. Good bass. Not as tight as the RME, but I prefer its bass presentation to Gungnir Multibit (SE, anyway). It also seems to do better than the Gungnir Multibit with microdynamics and detail. I like it, tonally, a little better than the RME, but the Gungnir Multibit still has the most organic overall tone.

I can't help but wondering if I'm missing some magic with Gungnir Multibit by only running it SE (my tube pre only has RCA ins), hence weighing the Yggdrasil GS and Bifrost 2.

I do wonder, however, if the Bifrost 2 will just be a sidegrade from the Gungnir Multibit and/or if I'm just a fan of D/S DACs.

If the Bifrost 2 can up the detail and keep the tonality of the Gungnir Multibit, it could be perfect. Aw, heck, maybe I should just order one, send it back if I don't dig it....

Anyway, hope I'm not adding noise, but, perhaps, a data point more or two on the RME and the Cambridge Audio--which despite being pretty mainstream, sounds good to my ears. It's friggin' massive though, and the streaming app still needs work.

 

AD1955 is a good chip. Even the old Lavry Black is good.

@wbass The Lynx HIlo is basically a much better ADI 2 Pro.

 

Lynx looks awesome, but I'm trying not to go over $2000. I feel like DAC technology changes too quick for me to want to drop any more $. Thanks for the rec though!

Yeah, if it the Cambridge thing is representative, I also like the AD1955. It seems like a nice sweet spot between detailed and slightly warm up top.

 

To my understanding the Bifrost 2 is essentially a Gungnir MB A1 with non-gimped SE outputs and none of the haze/grey background that seems prevalent on Schiit’s higher end stuff. Sounds like it fits your use case perfectly honestly.

Granted, if your Gungnir is an A2, then the Bifrost 2 will be even warmer and may come off as even mushier. What does its serial number start with?

 

I'm seeing SCH and B6. Not sure which line on the serial tag is relevant.

@animus Yeah, it does sound like the Bifrost 2 might solve some of my slight gripes with the Gungnir SE outs--a bit mushy, a bit veiled--but darker might not be better in this case.

 

Hm. Based on what I’m reading B implies A2 while C implies A1. Maybe Bifrost 2 might not be too good of an idea. Someone who knows more than me about this should comment.

 

Running a modern digiONEsig into it. Fun to see where we've come, soundwise, great loose bass that throws itself around... odd subtle distortion in the highs, a lucite plasticy sound or bleeding outside the lines like composite video. And... dead black, almost in a weird way. Very listenable though.

ref: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/sbaf-dac-talk-ii.6964/page-46#post-290898

Little follow up / Info I discovered researching this relic of a DAC:

Spoiler: PSAudio DACS

PS AUDIO SUPERLINK
2 x AD1860N-K – YM3434 – YM3623B (This is the DAC)

PS AUDIO SUPERLINK TWO
2 x AD1860N-K – SM5813APT – YM3623B

PS AUDIO SL THREE
2 x PCM63P-J – PMD100 – UA AES21

*********************

PS AUDIO DIGITAL LINK
2 x PCM61P – YM3434 – YM3623B (Maybe their 1st Dac?)

PS AUDIO DIGITAL LINK TWO
2 x AD1860N-K – YM3434 – YM3623B (Same?)

PS AUDIO DL THREE
2 x PCM1702-J – DF1700P / PMD100

PS AUDIO DIGITAL LINK III
PCM1798 – SRC4192I – CS8416-CSZ (Popular)

*********************

PS AUDIO ULTRALINK
1 x UA D20400 – SM5803AP – YM3623B

PS AUDIO ULTRALINK TWO
1 x UA D20400A – SM5803APT – UA AES21

PS AUDIO ULTRALINK TWO HDCD
1 x UA D20400A – PMD100 – UA AES21

PS AUDIO REFERENCE LINK LS
1 x UA D20400A + 2 x AD1860N-K

*********************

PS AUDIO NuWave DAC
PCM1798 – SRC4192 – CS8416 + XMOS USB

PS AUDIO PerfectWave DAC
WM8741 – SRC4392

PS AUDIO PerfectWave DAC II
WM8741 – SRC4392 + XMOS USB

Spoiler: Theta

https://www.thetadigital.com/legacy-products/
Frankenstein
DS Pre
DS Pro
--> DS Pre Generation II and DS Pro Generation II 1990 (AD1860)

Maybe they changed their mind on naming or cost sved one of them:
The SuperLink and DigitalLink TWO are the same chips/filter. (My SuperLink says DigitalLink internally on the board)

This Theta used the AD1860:
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/attempting-to-fix-theta-ds-pro-gen-ii.7530/

Also... I didn't know PSAudio bought UltraAnalog, that the HDCD PMD100 chip was flawed and fixed with the PMD200, thinking back on my (was a baby) adcom GCD-750... 1st gut reaction was-- this sounds like "Chalk" -- but really didnt know anything, it was fine.

 

The technology doesn’t change. Only shitty dacs radically change their design. Everybody else takes YEARS to come to market with new products. The Hilo has been out for almost a decade. Lavry Black for at least 15 years.

Shitty hifi dacs change all the time to sell based on meme components. The fundamental design of good dacs has changed little since multi bit delta sig dacs came out in the late 90s. Burl and Metric Halo use ancient AKM chips and sound good.