The Two Channel Advice Thread

Discussion in 'Advice Threads' started by purr1n, Nov 10, 2016.

  1. artur9

    artur9 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    171
    Trophy Points:
    43
    That professor was a CapFest demoing on active Janszens. I used to own Janszen (passive) and I could hear the effect clearly. Definitely a expansion of the soundstage and an increase in the size of the sweet spot.

    Re: ARC, I have their latest incarnation and for HT, it does the job. It's also pretty tweakable these days (tilt, correction range, bass extension, etc). Kind of a chore to do all the measuring.
     
  2. ogodei

    ogodei MOT: Austin AudioWorks

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,778
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Chicago
  3. Pocomo

    Pocomo Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    286
    Trophy Points:
    53
    Location:
    Boston
    Cool, I hope that RC system is moving closer to a commercial release.

    Dirac Live measurements are a chore as well, but also kinda fun (for me anyway). I think it’s 17 rounds for a full set which can take over an hour. I’m on tenterhooks the whole time hoping I didn’t f-up or that I missed some outside noise that screwed up a round. The MiniDSP units let you store 4 calibrations and switch back and forth, so comparing your latest run to the previous requires some deep listening (also fun).
     
  4. artur9

    artur9 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    171
    Trophy Points:
    43
    It is commercially available.
    There's a software only version for about $1,000.
    Then a preamp/DAC version for mid 4 figures? And another one?
    Then an audiophile version (which, the prof says, is built in a way that only audiophiles care about) for almost $60K

    searching for theoretica bacch will find it.
     
  5. dasman66

    dasman66 Self proclaimed lazy ass - friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2018
    Likes Received:
    2,502
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    NW Pennsylvania
    Just moved into a new office and the fonkens (fs108ez based) I used in the old office sound lost in this space. I'm not sure I have the energy to build something right now, so looking for a sub $1k suggestion (or a easy build suggestion).

    DAC - Yggdrasil+ MIB
    Amp - Studio B

    room is 11'-8x15'x15' ceiling. Speakers are on short wall, about 1' out from the corners and I sit ~10 away from them. They just sound small (and really thin)... not sure if they would be better if I turned them up, but I can't really go any louder during work hours (65db). Didn't have this problem in the old room, which was actually a little larger, but had only an 8' ceiling
    ----edit-----
    FWIW, old room walls were fabric covered relocatable partitions (which absorbed sound pretty well). New room is 2 walls brick and 2 walls drywall
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2024
  6. artur9

    artur9 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    171
    Trophy Points:
    43
    You might be hearing a lot of reflections. Higher frequencies reflect more. Anything you can do to dampen that? (quilt or other fabric wall hangings? acoustic absorbers of the art variety?)
     
  7. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    10,845
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    NOVA
    Home Page:
    Similarly, try fooling around with room position first. I'd start by shoving the speakers deep into the corners, like literally only about 1/4" from the corners of the speakers to the wall, then start moving them out until the bass becomes less peaky.
     
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  8. bobboxbody

    bobboxbody Friend

    Pyrate BWC Contributor
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,465
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    GR, MI
    If changing speaker position doesn't do it, you might be able to find a pair of frugal horn flat packs on diya and reuse the drivers, or use other fostex without too much hassle and stay under $1k.

    Madisound as some fostex folded horn flat packs but I've never heard them
     
  9. dasman66

    dasman66 Self proclaimed lazy ass - friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2018
    Likes Received:
    2,502
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    NW Pennsylvania
    I put a floor rug in (floors are hardwood), and plan to have 8' tall bookshelves behind me (currently that wall is brick). The two side walls and the wall behind the speakers will be more difficult. Large windows on one sidewall & the wall behind the speakers has a 6' wide doorway with a large wood/glass barn door that needs to remain operable. The other sidewall is drywall and has artwork on it now... which can probably change. I should probably sketch the room...

    I never thought about putting them that close. I'm so used to speakers needing to be pulled away from the walls... I'll give that a shot tomorrow

    ----edit----
    better than a sketch... here is a link to a matterport scan from before we moved in. This should take you right to the room that is now my office... speakers are on the wall with the barn door, facing the brick/CMU wall on the opposite side.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2024
  10. artur9

    artur9 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    171
    Trophy Points:
    43
    That was.. zoomy! :) Loved it!

    Can you hear improvements/degradation with the barn door open/closed?

    Experimentally you could hang blankets on the various walls to see if/which it is too reflective. I wouldn't put the blanket right against the wall, the dampening would work better with a 1-2 inch gap behind it. If it's the one with windows then, RoomPerfect or Linn Space (as if!)?

    There are acoustic dampening window shades if that's viable.

    On the drywall side, identify the reflection point and put a diffuser? Some of them are quite artistic.
     
  11. artur9

    artur9 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    171
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Can y'all offer some advice to improve sound stage sans acoustic treatment?

    Using a Philharmonic Audio BMR v2, Ayre AX-7e, Benchmark DAC1 fed by roon from a NUC via USB DDC to TOSlink. BMRs are up on stands with spikes weighted with many lbs of sandblaster beads on some inexpensive isolation feet (between speakers and stand). Left speaker is a few inches from the side wall, right speaker is many feet from the nearest side wall (rooms, right?) both 2-3 ft from front wall. Carpeted room, windows 2ft behind LP, drywall construction, TV furniture between speakers.

    I put the Ayre in last week and it expands the 'stage quite significantly. It also has this thing I attribute to phase where, if you're not quite in the sweet spot, the sound seems to come from way off to the right. Moving a few inches left snaps the center image back into place. (I had a miswired turntable that made everything sound like that).

    Objective: deeper more 3d sound stage. 'Stage width seems fine - wider would be nice. Vertical 'staging seems fine, really varies per album.
    Imaging is acceptable for now.

    Only thing I can think of is to hang a quilt/art panel or something on the left side.

    thanks in advance!
     
  12. gsanger

    gsanger Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2021
    Likes Received:
    267
    Trophy Points:
    53
    Location:
    Florida
    I've got a similar setup as you described - left speaker is maybe a foot from the left wall, right speaker is basically in the middle of the room. I hung a moving blanked on the left wall, with most of the blanket in front of the speaker, which definitely helped. I also put up another blanket behind my listening position, and that definitely helped. And, this might just be unique to my room, but the door is behind the right speaker, and, it sounds WAY better when the door is closed. I hung a moving blanket on the inside of the door, too - not sure how much that helps, but, it was more to try and reduce transmission of sound out of the room than to improve acoustics in the room.

    The other thing was just trying to angle the left speaker away from the wall a bit, and pushing my listening position a little to the right, which also seemed to help. My speakers are Klipsch RP-160ms, with a good degree of directivity - my understanding is the BMRs cast more of a wide dispersion, so your mileage may vary.

    I'm not sure how near-field friendly the BMRs are, but getting closer to the speakers was probably the thing that made the biggest change, and made for a more "spacious" sound stage, too. My speakers are about 6 feet apart, and I usually sit about 5-6 feet behind them, but sometimes move my chair closer/farther away to taste.

    Best of luck, and, out of curiosity, how is the Ayre amp? I've been interested in that one for a while - seems to be well regarded, and an improvement over the AX-7, with reasonable second-hand prices. Thanks!
     
  13. artur9

    artur9 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    171
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Thanks for the suggestions! I live close-ish to Amish country and the better half loves quilts so your moving blankets idea is definitely possible.

    I have the Ayre K-5xe and love it. The silence, the excellent operation, the musicality of it, just off the charts. I told my wife the other day that it's the one thing I would never sell. I had been thinking to get an Ayre amp to use with it but this gorgeous AX-7xe came up on eBay.

    I was afraid that 60W wouldn't be enough for the BMR given my experience with a T+A Amp8. I decided to roll the dice as the Ayre's spec's are 60/120 @ 8Ω/4Ω while the T+A was 80/110 @ 8Ω/4Ω.

    I'm glad I did. The AX preserves everything I love about the K and its amp section is phenomenal. The preciseness of imaging improved (I could hear exactly where some chimes were playing in one musical piece) and the soundstage expanded in every dimension (hence my query).

    The reason I wanted the integrated was because I didn't want to have to turn on the "A/V" system just to listen to music. Even without the subwoofers, the bass is great just from the BMRs. Not as deep, sure, and a little bit woolier without room correction but still sounds great.

    With the Ayre, music sounds a bit more realistic to me. One crazy detail I noticed, besides the chimes mentioned above, is on a recording of acoustic guitar playing (Bream) I could hear the "twang" that metal guitar strings have. I wasn't even paying that much attention! :-D (my dad played guitar so its sound is hardwired into me)

    Those 60/120W are killer. The AX volume knob goes to 66, iirc, each increment 1dB. The DAC1 is feeding the XLR with the pad jumper set to -10 (I think, maybe -20?) -- 0 caused distortion. Anything above 30 on the Ayre and I fear for my life :)

    Hope that above wasn't TMI....
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Epic Epic x 2
    • List
  14. gsanger

    gsanger Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2021
    Likes Received:
    267
    Trophy Points:
    53
    Location:
    Florida
    Thanks @artur9, definitely not TMI. Ayre just never seems to get coverage in the circles I run in, but always piques my interest. I appreciate the input, and glad to hear the AX-7e is a good choice.

    Let us know if those quilts make a difference. They definitely ought to be thick/heavy enough to have an impact.
     
  15. Greg121986

    Greg121986 Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Likes Received:
    410
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    I've been working on positioning my speakers in this space for 6 months and I think I may be nearly finished. However, I still have some strange behavior and I'm wondering if anyone can help me make sense of this. I have never done room measurements before, but I started messing with REW and also trying to interpret DIRAC measurements rather than just setting things by ear. I need to redo REW but my most recent DIRAC measurement really has me scratching my head. I have attached some photos and a mostly accurate diagram for your scientific exploration.

    The room is basically square so that is definitely not ideal. I have wall treatments everywhere. I am hesitant on ceiling treatments and I would prefer to not do that if I can help it. The speakers are too close to the wall, but I kind of like what this does to most bass frequencies, and I believe it has helped with sound staging. These speakers really need to be in a space that is 3x bigger than this room, I think. There are 10" exposed beams that run front-to-back on the ceiling.

    The weirdest thing I have discovered so far is that DIRAC shows my right channel down at 80-100Hz by something like 16dB! WTF is this? My left channel does not exhibit this issue. This is only a single measurement from the center listening position. I did not take any measurements other than this single point with DIRAC. There are a couple differences between left and right, but I am unsure what may be causing this. Can anyone review and maybe help me to speculate? Is it just the plant acting as a bass trap on the left side? Brick vs. Drywall? Is it the slightly open space between the wall/ceiling on the right side? Is it floor vibration? (The floor is noticeably springy) Is it the extra physical volume on the left rear of the room vs. right? It seems pretty strange.

    Some additional notes. These Vivid speakers are super weird. I have had the hardest time getting them positioned right. They are towed WAY in, which is what Vivid recommends. They converge far in front of me. I have determined this to be the best way to control the soundstage. Their dispersion width is really huge, so towing in this much helps to bring sound stage into proper scale, improves phantom center, and provides the presentation that I am most comfortable with. I believe this may also be doing weird things with the bass considering the side-mounted woofers.

    *EDIT* The rendering is very accurate, but the couch is too far forward in the rendering. In reality, the couch I sit on is about 12" closer to the back wall than it appears in the rendering. Also, meant to post in this thread rather than the other one. Sorry I'm dumb.

    Direc-Right-80hz-null.jpg Direc-Left-Decent.jpg Right-Front.jpg Left-Front.jpg theater-dimensional.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2024
  16. ergopower

    ergopower Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Likes Received:
    821
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    South Central PA
    I'd suggest you do a slow sweep to see if you really hear this or not. 100Hz is fairly hard to localize in any case; if you get the normal diffuse > pinpoint convergence to the center going up in frequency, it might be inaudible and not worth the time and trouble. If you hear the bass off-center at 80 - 100 then it centers itself, maybe there is something you need to address.
     
  17. Vansen

    Vansen Gear Master (retiring)

    Staff Member Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2016
    Likes Received:
    3,896
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Seattle
    What does the toe-in look like on your speaker set up? If you toe in the BMR too much the soundstage will collapse a bit. I've found these do better when toed in less with the apex a few feet behind your head. These have a very wide dispersion pattern and a very wide sweet spot, but playing with toe in can really affect staging.
     
  18. artur9

    artur9 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    171
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I did a bunch of REW a few years back. With that in mind...

    Did you try the room simulator in REW? It can show you the expected room modes and might help you determine if that dip is a room mode. It's not 100% so, just gives ideas.

    There's the Allison effect that might be the cause of the dip; aka floor/ceiling bounce. This page describes it nicely: https://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker-placement-boundary-interference/
    and this page has some nice calculators: http://tripp.com.au/sbir.htm
     
  19. artur9

    artur9 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    171
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Pretty much not toed in, only enough so that the appearance of the inner sides of the speakers looks the same.

    I'll try the toeing out and let you know.
     
  20. Vansen

    Vansen Gear Master (retiring)

    Staff Member Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2016
    Likes Received:
    3,896
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Seattle
    Ah, then maybe they need to be toed-in a little. I'd just play with the angle a bit and see if you can get something that starts sounding better, but no promises. I'd also play with the spacing between the speakers if possible to see if that has a positive impact
     

Share This Page