Yggdrasil MIB was: Jason+Marv Pyrate Edition 11001B

@crenca, it's ironic in a way because I've been reading for years that the single-ended output of my Analog 2 is gimped, but the outputs on the LIM and MIB weren't gimped due to the use of opamps. I'll probably still try the LIM just because I'm curious. Just really interesting to read so many different opinions about the magnitude of differences between outputs.

 

Whoops, I should have been more clear—all of my opinions were from using the balanced output of MJ3. Single ended vs balanced comparisons concerned only the DAC output into the amp.

Anyway, it could totally be a weird synergy thing. Or I’m just crazy. But my experience is pointing more towards the outputs sounding different:
After I realized I had issues with running LIM balanced into Jot 2 I tried a few single ended amps and they fixed my problems. But then I tried Jot 2 single ended in and out and I realized I preferred it to those other amps. When I kept single ended inputs and used the balanced output of Jot it was better still. But, when I brought back the balanced input that’s when the issues with LIM came back.

After that, I compared single ended and balanced cables from the same product line of three different companies with LIM. The same differences held.

The same held true when I got Mjolnir 3.

Then I got Yggdrasil MIB and it was the opposite, sounding much better from balanced compared to single ended. My thoughts were WTF as well.

The biggest finding from all this testing is I need to get out more. Besides that, I don’t think it is possible for single ended and balanced outputs to sound the same (even once volume matched). They are different standards with different connectors and it all adds up to a different sound. Sometimes better, sometimes worse, it will depend on synergies.

 

I'd also wonder if it's a difference based more on MJ3's handling of the SE vs. BAL input than the Yggdrasil output sections between LIM and MIB SE vs. BAL. But I've only spent time with A2 and LIM into Freya S, so I'm probably full of shit...

 

MJ3 is differential, so theoretically both SE and BAL inputs are direct to the input stage. Each BAL channel goes through two sections of the pot versus one for SE, but man, we're really splitting hairs here.

On the output of the MIB DAC, it seems to be LME49724 for both outputs. Hard to see how they differ.

I hate to be the 'measurements' guy, but given differences in gain across connections, I suspect less than perfect volume matching driving preferences.

 

My head hurts from listening to this...

 

It’s gotta be the op-amp.

 

I think you are probably right. Given the MiB design it really doesn't make sense. I'd have to run this caparison again as my MiB was newish when I did the A/B. I tried to volume match as best as I could when comparing the MiB RCA outs to its XLR. I had both sets of MiB outputs plugged into the MJ3 and used the Mj3 input switch for immediate comparison - each switch requiring a volume adjustment. Of course, due to the MJ3 not having a volume display or a stepped attenuator, you can't be sure you have it set right where it was but I felt it was close.

I'm not sure I would have noted a difference if the MiB RCA outs with Mj3 on high gain wasn't so dead on to my preference. I tried placing the XLR input on high gain but that made volume matching even more difficult.

 

Perhaps consider digital attenuation? It adds another variable, but would let you listen to balanced on high gain much more easily.

 

For what it’s worth, I also tried volume matching when switching between the outputs. Nothing fancy, with just an app on the phone pressed to the back center screen of the headphone cup when playing a constant tone. Differences were still there.

Anyway, can’t blame folks for calling poppycock/user error. My findings are outliers. Totally fair to treat them as noise in the data unless repeated by others.

 

I think the MIB boards sound wonderful for anything above the vocal range. They have the most delicate, even, and nuanced yet spacious top 2.5 octaves of music I've heard from a DAC. But below that range, MIB is quite shocking in its lack of, well, anything under about 5-600Hz. I've never heard a DAC do this type of weird disjointed and disconnected kind of shelving response. I'm pretty sure they weren't broken and I'm pretty sure burn in wouldn't fix what I heard, so I've got better ways to spend $850 and they're on their way back to Schiit.

I'm just going to leave it at this: MIB is quite disappointing given some of the reviews here.

 

@yotacowboy remind me what your daily driver DAC’s are? A2 and LIM, or just LIM?

edit: I see your profile info has A2 and BF2 OG, but you mentioned LIM in your recent status.

 

I flip flop between LIM and A2 every couple of months or so in my speaker setup, and BF2OG is in the office setup.

 

I’m still kinda surprised that your reaction seems so strong because I thought the MIB would be more different than “disjointed” per Purr1n’s take.

 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...rate-edition-11001b.13730/page-15#post-426382

Perhaps it's a matter of perspective. If you consider A2 to be elevated in the bass, then MIB could be perceived as neutral. If you consider A2 to be neutral in the bass, then MIB could be perceived as bass-light. It's not quite that simple, tho. Of all the DACs (or CDPs with built in DACs) I've had for any appreciable amount of time in my speaker system through all the years (NAD C525BEE, modded Music Hall CD25, Cambridge DacMagic, Rega DAC, Rega Apollo, Rega Saturn, BF Multibit, BF2OG and 2/64, Gungnir A2, and Yggdrasil A2 and LIM), none have presented as bass-light as MIB, going on memory (so, highly fallible). Well, maybe the Music Hall was worse, and Gungnir A2 was kinda similar... But I've never considered myself a basshead either, so maybe I am, or maybe I need to reassess what I consider to be "neutral" perceived frequency response below 200Hz.

 

*sorry, probably should have been in the main Yggdrasil thread or DAC advice thread

(Long preamble before my question) I have finally gotten a chance to re-set up my main rig after rearranging 50% of our house and have really been trying to dig into the difference between my BF2 OG and the Modius E feeding my MJ3. Have basically stuck with the HD800 since it it feels more revealing and is more potentially problematic than my ZMF VC. First, I am blown away by the MJ3. Like, multiple holy crap moments in a listening session. I don't think I can go back to anything other than the Pietus that is my office rig (and I don't think it is as close as some were saying). Second, I FINALLY am hearing the slightly sharper treble of the BF2OG. When I am tired, or listening to some brighter recordings, I have to turn down the volume little, which is counter to the initial revelation of the MJ3 (I can listen louder than I used to because it behaves so well). When swapping to the Modius E, I feel like I am hearing a more even frequency response with slightly less thick lows and less prickly highs. Really nice, and possibly my preference. But I do lose a smidge of depth and realism, which is something I really love about the BF2OG and is both noticeable and hard to give up.

So, instead of picking between the two (or mucking about with tweaks along the chain), I am thinking maybe just bite the bullet and get an Yggdrasil+. However, due to the ton of money I have recently spent on other hobbies and upgrades for the house, it is pretty hard for me to justify. If I baby stepped in and got the GS2 (I really want the new chassis), would I be getting something close to a combo of my two current DACs but better enough to justify more than double the price?

 

IME, it's only recently that I have experienced that MiB's bass is definitely synergy dependent, and my recently acquired DIY Aegis amp clearly showed me how insane synergy matters between amp, DAC (and preamp if it's in the chain).

Whereas BF2OG emphasized slow and rounder bass with the Aegis, MiB was hitting harder, slammier with more precision and emphasis to the peak of the dynamics thus the attack and decay are happening much, much faster while at the same time being intense, making my Susvara have Utopia OG like bass impact and slam with fast transients and have an iron grip with the drivers. Yes, MiB has more bass slam and extension than BF2OG and delivered with incredible incisiveness with the right amp synergy for it

 

At least then the tweaking doesn't require messing with hardware ... except it does when your HQP server runs out of juice for that magical filter/modulator/rate configuration

 

A1 (so: GS2) is probably the most incisive and treble fuckery-ish of the Yggdrasil flavors, so if you're looking to get away from that vs. BF2OG, it may not help. BF2OG though, to my memory (it's been a while now) was more sizzle vs. A1's bite, if that makes any sense. There's more nuance to the highs with A1 in other words, whereas BF2OG paints them a bit more kind of monochrome. Still, they both share some emphasis up top that some of the other Yggdrasil flavors dial back a bit or present differently. Put another way, A1 is less tizzy/fizz/sizzle than BF2OG, I guess -- I don't get "prickly" from it as often as I did BF2OG, only maybe on some recordings. I have not heard Modius, so I can't comment there.

So anyway, if you wanted something more "even" LIM would probably be a better answer, or even some of the relative warmth of A2. I haven't heard MIB, but it should also be relatively less incisive from all the reviews. You could always buy a GS2, then if you don't like it get some LIM boards, they're not bonkers expensive.

Re: are you going to be able to "justify" the purchase, that's a tougher call, IMO. You will get more depth and realism, significantly more plankton/resolution, etc. among other things vs. BF2. Still, it still is diminishing returns, probably -- BF2OG is an insanely good deal used market nowadays and GS2 is not going to feel like 3 to 4x more DAC for that price differential, but "it's still an Yggdrasil" to repeat a line I've seen a lot lately. Yggdrasil in all its flavors is revered in the Schiit lineup for a reason. It gives you enough push forward on all cylinders that, in aggregate, it will make a difference if you're already playing with big boy-ish or revealing enough gear, and I'd say with MJ3 and Verite/HD800 you are.

 

Hey I thought you were crazy when I first read this. I don't think I noticed because the MiB's bass presentation works very well with my 2-channel system/room and it has great synergy with the Mj3. I have had the MiB feeding my AMB M3 for about a month now, in fact I had only used the M3 with the MiB. I decided to test just one track, Michael Jackson's "Remember The Time" with its slightly exaggerated or distorted bass guitars. I listened with the MiB first and then the GS. The GS dug a bit deeper and had more bass grunt without loss of detail or control. I can't compare to the A2 because those boards are on ice right now but the A2 and GS are alot more similar than different.

IMO This is a synergy thing so my MiB boards are not going anywhere. They sound too good in my 2 channel setup. I also i don't really know if I prefer the GS to the MiB overall with the M3. Still, I would probably give up the MiB before the GS.

I'd still rank the Yggys as
1. GS
2. MiB
3. A2 (The A2 is 3rd only because its slightly more harmonically rich mids make it the most finicky DAC in the lineup when pairing with other equipment. At least with the stuff I have used it with.)

 

I'm going to do a more in depth comparison of the outputs on the MIB when I can by hooking up the XLR outs of the MIB to Cinemag 600 series transformers, then into a 2 in 4 out switcher made by a friend of mine with the best parts avaiable including Elma switchers and OCC copper internal wiring. then the SE outs of the MIB into the other input of the switcher and then to various amps.

BUT, I've got a couple amps here with multiple inputs like my Crimson. For some reason my Stratus gets a ground loop when I plug both the XLR-transformer inputs in as well as the direct SE inputs in, but the Crimson doesn't.

And I spent quite a bit of time switching back and forth between inputs on the Crimson. I don't agree with the post just above about all about every single output on MIB and LIM sounding totally different. I have no idea where that's coming from. Keep in mind that when you take SE out of a DAC and feed it into the SE in of the MJ3 or any other balanced amp for that matter, you're using the internal transformers of the MJ3/amp, which are going to be worse than my 600 Cinemags AFAIK.

Anyways, in my test with the Crimson toggling between the two inputs, I thought the tone was basically identical. I couldn't even hear the infamous Cinemag "wet" tone. What I heard was a slight haze over the input coming from the XLR-transormers compared to a cleaner, slightly more resolving sound direct from the SE outs of the MIB.

I'm convinced that the SE outs of the MIB are superior than running transformers out of the XLR outs to get an SE signal. I'm convinced enough that I have some long RCA cables hooked up to my most used SE amps straight from the SE outs of the MIB. But I need to do a more comprehensive test with more amps and headphones to be sure.

Take this with a grain of salt - but right now I would wager the SE outs are good on the MIB. Maybe not as good as the XLR outs, but better than XLR-transformer combination to get an SE signal Unless maybe you got some Audio Note transformers for the conversion air something which I always wanted to do.

I would say to be at peace @zonto but I'll update this when I can hook everything up. Not sure if I'll do this or compare MIB to A2 first. Both are long overdue but my list of things to listen to critically is super long.