Jude E-peens Tyll and Gaslights Us with Alternative Facts

Discussion in 'Headphone Measurements' started by Panohm, Jun 15, 2017.

  1. Panohm

    Panohm Facebook Friend

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  2. neogeosnk

    neogeosnk Almost "Made"

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  3. gbeast

    gbeast Mighty Moral Power Ranger

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    The bold statement is this:
    :confused:
     
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  4. cskippy

    cskippy Friend

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    *Taking measurements...

    Jude "Is that 10kHz peak still there?"
    Measurebateur "Yeah."
    Jude "Well move the headphones around until it disappears."

    *10 measurements later...

    Measurebateur "Got it!"
    Jude "Sweet! I'll post these ASAP."

    JK, kind of...measurements are certainly easy enough to tweak to make peaks less pronounced or even disappear depending on conditions and particular headphones. I guess we'll see what happens as more info unfolds and Tyll voices his side.
     
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  5. mscott58

    mscott58 Friend

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    First the Utopia/LCD4 measurement debates and now the Z1R is in a similar dust-up. Hope Tyll sticks to his guns. He might start asking for three headphones of each type soon when he does a review!
     
  6. Marvey

    Marvey Loves sex and records

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    The sample we got for the loaner program had the same 10kHz peak and distortion characteristics as Tyll's. @foo_me also heard this pair and commented on the treble.

    I didn't feel the peak was annoying on this pair, mainly because it was masked by the excess bass, and 10kHz moderate peaks tend to be more benign than even small 8kHz peaks. Note that the two samples Jude has in possession have 8kHz peaks.

    Not enough data for Jude to assume that what Tyll got was an outlier. If anything, with the additional SBAF sample taken into account, it suggests two different drivers or poor tolerances.

    Finally, it was kind of a cheap move by Jude to subtly imply his measurements were more accurate than Tyll's by posting photos of his headphone measurements setup. It's the man, not the machine. Errors introduced by humans or non-linearities inherent with headphones are magnitudes higher than errors introduced by the environment or cheap measurement gear.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
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  7. Marvey

    Marvey Loves sex and records

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  8. spwath

    spwath Friend

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    I just posted my measurements in that thread of the sbaf pair. Match Innerfidelity
    I'm still on head fi watch list after making a comment about their censorship, so my post has to be approved though.

    MDR.jpg


    EDIT: better graph
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
  9. Marvey

    Marvey Loves sex and records

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    OK, I finally get what's bothering me:

    Tyll writes a ton of reviews, some negative toward a product. Why did Jude feel the need to respond specifically to Tyll's MDR-Z1R review and plaster it over the HF home page? Also, Jude has historically been anti-measurement, even railing against me and my measurements at an Ann Arbor meet years ago. So why now is Jude bringing up his own measurements of the Z1R to imply that either Tyll's sample is an outlier or Jude's measurement rig is more accurate?

    What happened to we all have different personal preferences? Or people hear differently? Finally, let me point to Jude's own words from 2015: So, as was stated earlier, it can be tough to make meaningful comparisons of measurements between the results of the different providers of them.

    I thought measurements were there to provide an additional data point, and to help keep us honest about ourselves by pointing out gross non-linearities. When did measurements become a way from someone like Jude to refute or seed doubt to a negative review from a respected reviewer like Tyll (who has been doing this a long time. much longer than Jude)?
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
  10. SSL

    SSL Friend

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    Maybe SBAF should start posting pictures of the measurement rig as well. Because obviously
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Mshenay

    Mshenay Slightly aspie. Don't make fun of.

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    I haven't heard the MDR Z1R so I really can't comment on how it sounds, I've always enjoyed both Tyll and @Marvey's measurements. I know that @Bill-P had his Modded ATH ES10 measure by Tyll FOR ME before I purchased it. An they've always been on point. I don't agree with everything Tyll says, he for example thinks the Eikon is "polite and warm" I find it to be more balanced an attribute the warmth he heard with his choice of amplification, but I don't refute what he says, also having Jude brag about how AMAZING the HF measurement rig is and taking a pot shot at Tyll for not being on par, having the same level of equipment, pisses me off.

    Jeeze I didn't even realize it was on the FRONT page of HF either, I'm disappointed to see them working to hard to discredit what has been a well documented part of the performance of this headphone
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
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  12. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf MOT: Sonarworks

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    Since when it's productive to compare measurements across different systems?
     
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  13. ButtUglyJeff

    ButtUglyJeff Friend

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    Sadly the answer is easy. There's an agenda, and the measurements are a tool of manipulation. Now I'm not sure what the agenda is, maybe Jude feels he needs to knock Tyll down a notch? Protecting a sponsor?

    My ears tell me the bass is the problem, and its too much like a Z7. A Z7 can be fun for many (including me), but a $2k plus headphone should do so much more.
     
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  14. frenchbat

    frenchbat BritishBat's arch enemy - Friend

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  15. Torq

    Torq Retired from SBAF

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    And then you get the defensive posts for those already invested (and/or fanboys) coming up with any reason they can for why they disagree with things:


    Because of course you need a $2,499 cable and 3+ weeks of 8-hour-a-day burn-in to make a $2,299 headphone not sound fucked.

    --
    Edit: I should clarify - it's not that I think the headphones in question "sound fucked" (I only have enough time with them to know that they're not something I'd spend close to that amount on), and my issue is with the burn-in/stupid-cables/OMG you need an LPS that costs 3x what the item does excuse making for products that aren't well received in some quarters.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
  16. Marvey

    Marvey Loves sex and records

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    Right? You see right through this!

    That's the strange part. Tyll provides value with another perspective, but at the end of the day, who cares what someone else thinks; and why bring in the measurement rig e-peening with Tyll? It makes us think that something else is going on, maybe something personal, if it's not a deep rooted insecurity on Jude's part.

    I like the Z1 more than I care to admit. I hear all of Tyll's criticisms. The main difference is that the extent of the issues that Tyll raises on the Z1 are minor to me. I don't feel I need to prove Tyll wrong. My issue is the merely mediocre to good performance for $2200.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
  17. FallingObjects

    FallingObjects Pay It Forward

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    Corporate overlords are a hell of a drug, kids.
     
  18. Priidik

    Priidik Friend

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    It appears to me so as well. Wants to wash off competition and expand his herd of sheep. At least it has this sort of tone to it.
    Measurements have become standard like paid reviewers with their cheesy audiophile vocabulary.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
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  19. ButtUglyJeff

    ButtUglyJeff Friend

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    @Marvey its sad to ask this, because measurements of gear just left its infancy, so maybe could you do a small write up on how easy it is to manipulate measurements? I mean one could do so many things, while measuring, that could put a headphone (or whatever) in a more positive or negative light.

    Maybe @Hands or @sorrodje should run with this?

    Its kinda sad that it needs to be done, but I think it still needs to be done...
     
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  20. Mshenay

    Mshenay Slightly aspie. Don't make fun of.

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    Sadly that seems to be the case, I'm sure we'd appreciate some information on how measurements can be manipulated, still the scope will be limited to those who are open to even the possibility that "objective data" posted on HF would or could be manipulated
     

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