MQA

Discussion in 'Music and Recordings' started by Gravity, Mar 18, 2016.

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  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The growth in market share is about 30%. Jumps from 4% to 6%, 6 to 8.5% share.

    Darko needs to be friends with everyone, including Schiit and Meridian. Otherwise no more DACs to review.

    P.S. I might write a SBAF position on MQA.
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    That is true, but I happened to be looking at the nature of the wavesforms, and how the bits don't change as much and get smooshed at the crests of the peaks. Compression tends to squish stuff up to the top and bottom leaving very little in the middle.
     
  3. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    As far as I can tell, MQA is bullshit.

    It's just another random lossy format that comes at a premium.

    I do not see the reason for it's existence, from the customer's perspective.
     
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    It comes down to this. What is the problem MQA is trying to solve?
    1. Given what humans can perceive, I can see a plausible argument that more bits than 16 is necessary. Maybe 18. Let's say 20 to make absolutely sure.
    2. Given what humans cannot perceive (assuming proper sampling and reconstruction), I cannot see a argument that we need anything past a sampling rate of 48kHz.
    3. Therefore the proper solution to solve the quality problem would be 18-20/48 PCM or for the sake of simplicity 24/48 PCM.
    This brings one important question:
    1. Why does MQA unnecessarily encode 24/96 (the stuff past 24kHz that we cannot hear) into 24/48 when lossless 24/48 PCM would have been absolutely fine (and actually superior because the least significant bits are not used for encoding stuff we cannot hear) as a end-user playback format.
     
  5. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Because money.

    U need Meridian Quandary Audio ~does Obi-wan hand waving~
     
  6. wnmnkh

    wnmnkh Friend

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    Jason and Mike, you guys probably have pissed off a lot of people. :p

    It is evident (from my impressions at trade shows like CES) that some serious money has been tunneled for promoting already-disliked-by-many MQA. You can already see that Stereophile twisting that press release in Facebook.


    MQA is really high-res version of MP3. The word "psychoacoustic" is dead-give away since it is also used to describe how mp3's lossy compression.
     
  7. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    Both of this is off-topic, but I find this an interesting (but probably pointless) discussion:

    I'm by no means an expert, but shouldn't the quantisation error always be less than or equal to 0.5 LSBs? I believe this is sufficiently dithered by mic noise, etc. in the real world.
    Another interesting thing would be to calculate the quantization error in a vinyl record at the typical peak playback level (far louder than the 0db reference level) due to the finite size of the molecules. I believe someone has already done this. Of course the stylus doesn't only track one point (which lessens the effect) and the effect would be dominated by other sources of noise. Still interesting.

    I guess the most important question wrt quantization noise is:
    Is the correlation between signal and quantization error low enough to truly call it 'quantization noise'?
     
  8. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    The quantisation error, the way MQA is describing it, seems more than 0.5 LSBs. Like way more depending on the frequency band and whatever other random stuff they are doing.

    Vinyl is another story. The noise in there maybe of a different nature overall than the cluster f**k the Meridian guys are describing.

    As a matter of fact, I'm not sure I fully understand what they are doing. First they mention u can put this in a lossless container, and throw the "lossless" key word here and there. Only to later find that they are changing quantization levels, resampling ... there is no way in hell that's lossless. Then they fold over the high frequencies into the low frequencies using some envelope thingy, followed by some residual deal. Add more "lossless" and "audiophile" keywords. Now put that together, shake it, add water and done. Now pay us for it. WTF!

    I'm not sure what we are getting at with correlation. I can have a tone which may correlate poorly with the input audio signal.
     
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    How many molecules between peaks and troughs of a groove? 65536? All discrete steps?
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
  10. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    I meant for a normal, non MQAd, digital file (hence why it is off-topic)

    I read a figure that was less than that (for the 0db reference level, so it would likely be more depending on the specific record.), but I guess this is insignificant because of the other sources of noise.

    Atoms: yes. In the real world: no. Afaik the molecules vary in size between maybe a couple dozen to multiple hundred atoms or so, maybe less, I'm not sure. It's probably closer to clumps of matter.
    There's also the factor of the surface area of the stylus, essentially performing an average (actually not an average) of a tiny area in the grooves.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
  11. ultrabike

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    AFAIK quantization noise can be correlated or uncorrelated. Noise is basically stuff added to the intended signal. Quantization means you have a finite precision to represent something. Quantization noise comes from reducing precision.
     
  12. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    Quantization noise is bad. That's why 18 or 20 bits would be much better than 96 or 192 kHz sampling (if we had to pick only one).

    Quantization noise = embedded inaccuracy in the recording.

    Embedded = you will never get rid of it, no matter how many algorithms you throw at it.
     
  13. lm4der

    lm4der A very good sport - Friend

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    I believe MQA is an attempt to mirror the model that the movie industry has with DVD/BluRay:

    0) I think the first point - and the horror - of this is that you have to have licensed gear to decode the files. The music industry longs to have all digital music encrypted in the same way that the movie industry did with DVD and BluRay. The MQA provides the vehicle to get there.

    1) They want to resell their whole catalog of music in a new format, in the same way that the movie industry has moved from DVD -> BluRay -> 4k.
     
  14. purr1n

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    ^ Where I was getting to, but explained better than I could. Analog's source of noise is inherently different.

    Also, vinyl deforms to a metal stamper. Metal atoms and molecules are probably orders and orders smaller than long polymer chains.
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    And this is why MQA will fail. BD (BluRay Disc) has essentially failed even though is backed by all of the major studios. 4K isn't anything people have asked for (it is ridiculous in terms of storage size requirements - you can even argue 2K uncompressed is better than 4K compressed.) In fact, all the movie studios, major and minor are failing big time in the post theatrical (or TV) release home entertainment market. Right now, its easier to steal content than it is to buy it. In some cases, if you want 720p or 1080p content, you have to steal it.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
  16. PoochZag

    PoochZag The Shadow knows - Friend

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    There's about 3 moles of PVC in a 180g record, so that would give you about 1.8 x10^24 molecules of PVC (yes, 24 zeroes). So.... there's a LOT of molecules spanning a peak to trough. Could probably figure it out by taking the atomic length of a single PVC repeat and compare to the average groove depth, but math is hard, and you get into the issue of the average particle size of PVC and how many molecules long that is....etc. Probably more than 16 bits can describe?
     
  17. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    I read it here:
    https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/iandm/part12/page2.html
    The important piece of information is this:
    "A 0 dB 1 kHz sinewave corresponds to a peak offset of just 8 microns."
     
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Again, that doesn't take into account that vinyl is shaped by a stamper. It's not like bits of the plastic molecules only come out of the stamper in discrete chunks one by one resulting in consistent discrete steps. The polymers get stretched and compressed.

    Back on topic, I think SBAF should create new high quality playback standard, free of charge, and fully compatible with most existing playback gear and even playback containers / lossless compression format.

    I propose this: NWA - No Wanker Audio

    Specification: 24/48 PCM
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
  19. NekoAudio

    NekoAudio Acquaintance

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    I was skeptical when I first read about MQA, knowing what I do about data encoding and compression. And the details only supported my concerns. The supposed ADC correction remains interesting but that's something you could do without the MQA compression algorithm.
    Because 48kHz audio is not HD audio. And they're selling HD audio. There are enough people in the audiophile world that hear differences between playback at (or buy products based on source files support for) 44.1kHz/48kHz and 88.1khz/96kHz or 176.4khz/192kHz that there's a market. Personally I suspect most of the time the audible differences are due to the gear running at 96kHz and the different operating characteristics and applicable filtering, and not because the source file is at 96kHz.

    Which does lead towards a question of if you want your source file to be 88.1kHz/96kHz in order to force non-upsampling gear to operate at those higher sample rates to get the benefits of moving the filter processing much higher above the audible band in exchange for the typical slight increases in the noise and distortion.
     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    That's my opinion too. People are hearing differences on how the DACs internally handle higher sampling rates. I took a DSD128 file (encoded with one of those Korg ADCs, the ones that are now discontinued) and downsampled to various formats using Adobe Audition, which is supposed to have a very good resampling algorithms. I heard no difference between 44, 88, 174 sampling rates. I did hear a difference between 16 bits and 18 bits, but not 20. I used the Vega DAC for this comparison. I didn't use the PWD2 I had back then because I knew the PWD2 treated material with different sampling rates differently.

    As far as "HD" terminology, how does one explain why "HD radio" sounds significantly worse than regular FM radio when there is good FM reception?
     
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