The Stax I thread

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by knerian, Mar 28, 2016.

  1. Koth Ganesh

    Koth Ganesh Friend

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    There you go MF. Just for you
     
  2. shipsupt

    shipsupt Admin

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    A) As previously stated, the Normal Bias Lambda is a treasure now. Hard to find. I've got "a few" stats and I've never owned this one. That said, this will give you an introduction but if you want to move on you'll be looking at a new amp with pro-bias etc... Tempting offer to own a "legend". No pro-bias means you can't add the L300 to this rig.
    B) I don't know a lot about the 312 amp, but having an amp with NB and PB gives you some flexibility moving forward.
    C) For the extra cash over the first two options this doesn't seem all that attractive. At this point I'd start putting together something around the L300.

    Good luck! No terribly wrong decision here, all good places to start.
     
  3. anetode

    anetode Friend

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    The 009 has a few tonal quirks which are a deal-breaker for some people. So it is with any other headphone. The trickier quality to unravel is that unbearable lightness of being, that ethereal quickness which for some is over too soon. The decay is said to be an affront to nature or to lead to a plasticky sound (or some other tired audiophile cliche). I prefer to like the 009 for what it is: a headphone. Fact is that a neutral headphone will always sound a little dry, a little lacking in soundstage permanence, those that don't err on the side of sounding too rich (e.g. HD650) or larger than life (e.g. HD800). If I want to listen to a cavernous presentation I listen to my Philharmonic 3s, or to the LS50s for a more realistic presentation of an audio event.

    Headphones are necessarily tricksters and choosing one often comes down to which illusion you prefer. I like that razor's edge presence which lays bare details of the recording without dwelling on boom or falling apart into some mild euphonic slurry. And I like bass which can keep up with crazy prog rock drum solos as well as letting you feel the textured footsteps of some lumbering electronic mammoth on a trip-hop track.

    None of this is to say that I like that the 009 still has a lil' of the ol' Stax shout at 1khz, or that its subbass had to be equalized to get proportional slam, or that the kindest thing I can say about its soundstage is that it's OK for a planar. But I completely agree with shipsupt that the 009 has some real magic to it that requires your own personal listening environment to really appreciate.
     
  4. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

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    MSB stat amp review:
    I had a chance to have a listen to a friends 009 Rig yesterday - Aurender w20/MSB Select dac/electro stat amp + SR009. Let it be known that my previous experience with the SR009 with BHSE, SRM727II, KGHSSV and a few other amps has always left me disappointed in the 009. This brief review will discuss the MSB Select amp with the SR009.

    This is just my opinion and I’m sure many will not agree but that’s why we are here, to share opinions.

    The 009 from the BHSE is my reference with 009 and honestly, still my reference for the CLARITY possible from a headphone, do not mistake this for microdetail or plankton. The 009 in my opinion is NOT the hyper-detail king it is often hyped as.

    The 009 is a fantastic tool for hearing pinpoint imaging, it has good transient response and separates instruments in well recorded pieces exceptionally well, however its ability to render low level information is good but not great IMO YMMV. I often wondered if this was due to the lack of differing amplifier topographies and lack of competition or just a limitation of the driver design.

    I don’t even mind that the 009 is not the ultra-resolving can I was told it is, I have a bigger gripe with the 009, which is why I never bothered to own it. Prior to trying the MSB amp the 009 was never musical. The separation and clarity often distracted me away from the music and it was ruining even well recorded music. For perfectly recorded, simple, classical pieces with only a few instruments, it was exceptional. Hands down, the best for this genre of music. However, a lot of well recorded blues, jazz, big hall orchestral which is my predominant listening material sounded outright bad from the 009. It lacked cohesion and had a tendency to accentuate unpleasantness in the recording.

    When I first heard the 009 - 2 years ago, my first thought was this thing is so detailed I will need to delete my entire music collection and start again, but the more I listened to my reference tracks, the more I realized it wasn’t picking up on more detail or the quality of the recording was not up to scratch, it was just the 009 driver. I had to try it again from a few more set ups with different DACs and I firmly believed the 009 was just not capable of sounding musical and cohesive.

    That was until I heard it from the MSB Select Electrostatic amp. This is not the BHSE/stax stuff, whatever it is, it something entirely different. That was very obvious to me. As soon as I heard it, I thought the sr009 was modified, it was not.

    The sr009 from the MSB Select amp was musical. It was actually enjoyable with a wider range of music and left me rather confused. It had decent weight and timbre which I had never ever heard on anyone’s Stax 009 rig (even those with 100k USD upstream). Yet clarity and the famous 009 speed and precision was still there now with cohesion, texture and musicality. This was the best I had heard the 009.

    Plankton was not really improved from this amp so I will continue to assume it is a limitation of the 009 driver itself.

    This amplifier is a must hear for stax fans. Unfortunately, it is out of the price point of most people (38k USD).I do hope that whatever this tech is, trickles down to a more affordable level. I do not believe this amp is KG/stax/headcase in nature at all, the voicing is unlike any other electrostatic amp I have heard. This is by far the most enjoyment I have had from the sr009 trumping the BHSE, however it was not enough to convince me to move in this direction. Maybe other transducers like the Shangri-la, future stax models or new players will make a headphone that pushes the stat technology further and in a direction I may prefer.


    Happy Listening

    Xec
     
  5. Arnaud

    Arnaud Facebook Friend

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  6. ivanrocks321

    ivanrocks321 New

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    Was wondering if anyone has any experience with these amps that can comment on how they sound compared to each other. I only found a threads on the other site that had some posts about the megatron vs bhse and megatron vs kgsshv.

    I am considering if i want to eventually go with a bhse or kgsshv carbon or the megatron eventually for my stax rig. Thanks guys.
     
  7. MuppetFace

    MuppetFace Sultana of Seafoam Green - Moderator

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    Running my old babies, the Lambda SR-303 Classic, from a newer model SRM-252S (which came with the L300). I remember getting the older SRS-2020 system (aka SR-202 and SRM-252A amp) for $400 several years ago. The SR-303s I've had since college.

    The SRM-323 amp that was originally bundled with them is in another room.

    I still remember those mystical feelings. For someone new to the world of headphone, e-stats were quite alien to me. Even the name STAX sounded bizarre. Seeing the Lambdas, it seemed oddly fitting that they'd be called STAX (since the taller housings look "stacked up" --- IDK brains are weird). They came from Japan. They were made out of plastic. They had really serious office-y color schemes like sandy gray with slate blue trim or hunter green with brown. Ribbon cables. Throwback 80s font in pastel on the box and headband arc. They needed their own special amps.

    Getting that long ass amp as a n00bish college student was something else. Amps weren't supposed to sit deeper than they are wide, and yet here was one. Uncovering its hidden secrets like the little screw on part in the back for grounding wire or that the outer layer of the volume knob turned on its own to adjust the channels was like... Mind blowing stuff back then. Like whoaaaa.

    I know some people on YouTube need to "separate these from headphones; they're not headphones, okay? They're earspeakers."

    But they were always headphones to me, even back then. Heck, I didn't even really consider that earspeakers---like the term orthodynamic---is just branding. I just felt that the world of headphones had room for all these oddities; back then it was this vast, undiscovered country for me.

    And yet, and yet.

    After all that "journeying" over the years since, I find myself right back here, virtually where I started. I like to think I've learned some stuff along the way, but the name STAX still seems delightfully strange to me when I really think about it.
     
  8. jacq

    jacq Top 3 poster - friend

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    I'm curious as to what kind of STAX amps I should be looking at if I want to power an SR007 mk1? I was looking at the SRM-323S to hold me over until I can afford a DIY KGSSHV but would that be a waste? Also, anyone have comparisons between the 007 vs L700?
     
  9. Rotijon

    Rotijon Friend

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    Jacq, a diy kgsshv should be very cheap now. Id suggest you try and get one from a regular diy guy, not the mjolnir audio ones.

    007 uses sr007 sheets, while L700 uses sr009 sheets. Completely different animal
     
  10. jacq

    jacq Top 3 poster - friend

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    Yeah I have both but I only have the SRD7 right now and I can't use it until the Master9 comes back from this mini tour I'm doing. Sadly my DIY builder isn't available until March so I'm trying to find ways to soothe the itch. I tried the SRD7 side by side with the SRM-252S and it sounds pretty similar. That's kind of disappointing, lol.
     
  11. shipsupt

    shipsupt Admin

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    I'd keep an eye out for a 717 if you don't stumble across a nice KGSShv or something similar for sale. I still think it's one of the most solid amps from STAX, but not always easy to find nowadays.

    A few options that probably push the budget a little...
    - The GES is a little underpowered for the 007, but it's not bad. http://www.head-fi.org/t/811038/fs-woo-ges-with-upgraded-tubes
    - A little more spendy, but a really nice amp. I know the builder personally and he does great work: http://www.head-fi.org/t/824196/headinclouds-kgst

    Keep in mind that if your end goal is getting another amplifier you're probably better off not spending much in the mean time... You're likely to spend half of your budget on getting an amp you don't plan to keep.


    Keep an eye out for @MuppetFace to chime in, she's had ears under both the 007 and L700 and can give you a good comparison.
     
  12. MuppetFace

    MuppetFace Sultana of Seafoam Green - Moderator

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    The SR-007 is hungry. It wants you to feed it, and unless you give it enough of what it wants, it tends to just keep sleeping. The SRM-323 is a great amp, but the SR-007 is going to sound dark and kinda flabby down below. Same with all the tube amps that Stax makes. To wake it up, at the very least you want something like the SRM-717 or a modified SRM-727 (if you buy one from HeadAmp, Justin will prolly do the mod for you, otherwise it's not too difficult if you've had modding experience). The KGSSHV will do really well, but IMO the BHSE is pretty much designed to kick the SR-007's ass and get it in shape. All the Gilmore stat amps have fantastic control over these drivers. Personally speaking, however, I find a lot of Gilmore designs a bit *too* bright and thin with the brighter Staxen like the SR-009 and most of the Lambdas. YMMV of course.

    With enough oomph behind it, much of the "overly dark" character of the SR-007 goes away. It's never gonna sound quite like the brighter Stax---it's still a bit more laid back---but it's actually a lot closer to the SR-009 in terms of performance than people give it credit for. Minus the fatiguing aspect of the SR-009. This makes the SR-007 well suited for really long listening sessions. That, and it's super comfortable to wear.

    The L700 is a member of the Lambda family, and as such it's going to have a brighter and more energetic character. Luckily this version is more refined and not as aggressive sounding as its predecessor, the SR-507. It reminds me a lot of a modern take on the Lambda Pro sound: clear, bright---but not *too* bright---nimble and well extended. The etched treble that plagued the Lambdas throughout the 90s and early 2000s doesn't seem to be an issue here. Details tend to pop and sound more emphasized compared to the SR-007 which seems to me to just kinda disappear into the background more. Compared to the flagship models, the Lambdas always sound less realistic but more immediately "fun." They're also known for sounding more stereotypically electrostatic: with an open and vaporous quality that is kind of difficult to describe. It's one of those things you have to hear for yourself.

    With the Lambdas---L700 included---music just seems effortless to me. It seems to materialize out of thin air around me, and what this airy sound traditionally lacks in oomph (lower frequency impact), it makes up for with a very "out-of-head" kind of presentation. Fortunately the L700 is the most balanced and refined of its ilk to date, and a lot of the weaker areas of reproduction on legacy models aren't as noticeably deficient on the L700 to my ears.

    Like @shipsupt said, the SRM-717 is a good way to go. They usually sell for around $1k USD, but you need patience because they don't pop up often. If I were gonna drive the L700 and SR-007, this is the amp I'd go for personally.
     
  13. shipsupt

    shipsupt Admin

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    I've been using the Woo GES in the office for a while now. Never content to leave things as they are, I decided to do a little tube rolling. I was using some Dumont 6S4A power tubes and the Genalex ECC83 Gold Lions for the drive tubes. The Gold lions are generally well thought of in the GES.

    I swapped in a set of Channel Master 6S4As (Japanese made, extra mica up top as a getter shield) and some NOS Mullard (Great Britain) ECC83s.

    I am a little surprised at the difference! Power tubes in this amp normally make little difference, so I have to chalk up the obvious increase in bass volume and impact to the Mullards. It feels slightly less controlled, but I am much happier with this combination.

    I've spent the morning listening to the ESP-950, which was not very good at all with the previous tubes, but is darned good now! I'll roll in the 007 and 009 later this week.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Rotijon

    Rotijon Friend

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    Am i the only one who really really likes the new L700 series.

    I actually prefer it to the 009, its just meatier and the bass is just better and more defined.

    No longer feel that stax plasticky sound anymore.
     
  15. manatworks

    manatworks Friend

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    @Rotijon
    that's interesting ! you ran it on T2 ?
     
  16. shipsupt

    shipsupt Admin

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    I've not listened to any of the L-series yet. I'll have to see if my local fellow STAX zealot can help me out with a loaner. I've heard good things!
     
  17. Ali-Pacha

    Ali-Pacha Friend

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    You've probably read my thoughts on HF : http://www.head-fi.org/t/785949/the-stax-sr-l500-and-sr-l700-impressions-thread/450#post_13197636
    So let's agree to disagree on bass :p My impressions seem to fit @sorrodje measurements : http://www.superbestaudiofriends.or...xy-the-stax-compendium.1976/page-4#post-54794
    I've tested them side-by-side with my Sigma Pro, and they share this low-mid hump, but Sigmas are going further in this area (more hump, more "meat"). No free lunch btw, Sigmas are way more veiled up top and the old Lambda Sig drivers within are not up to technicality from 009-like drivers in L700 ;)

    Ali
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
  18. Rotijon

    Rotijon Friend

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    Unfortunately, i did not, but it was a good read.

    @manatworks

    I didnt, the T2 is in Singapore right now, so i cant wait =).

    Having said that , i heard the L700 to an unmodded 727. And that was what shocked me. For the longest time, i did not really enjoy the stax (or most headphones for that matter since i have speakers), it was more of curiosity, and the filling of an old desire when i was a poor student that drove me to spend stupid amounts of money on the e-stats.

    I'll say this about the new L series (L300 - L700), I've owned the 009, 007, SRM-600, KGST, KGSSHV and 717. But nothing, absolutely nothing gave me more pleasure than the L700 and 727 at that shop (same DAC). It had a real solid, meaty feel to the sound, and yet, so smooth and light without being plastic. Most of the time, on the 009, i can push the volume to a 3 o clock, and barely feel a thing, but the L700, damn i got my feet tapping.

    It had the solidness of planars and speed of stats. But not soft sounding like the HE1000.

    I compared it my Dave Utopia combo. And i think i much prefer the 727 to L700.

    I dont think its the amp that's the weak link here, so im guessing its the headphone. Knowing your taste, id suggest you go try it out with a nice musical dac. You wont regret it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
  19. sorrodje

    sorrodje Carla Bruni's other lover - Friend

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    As much as I enjoyed my time with the L700 , I still don't think it's up to 009 level but it's one of the most easy to enjoy headphone I had the pleasure to listen to.
     
  20. Rotijon

    Rotijon Friend

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    "Easy to enjoy" hits the nail on the head for me.

    Does not do much wrong and does most things right, and lack the attitude problem of the 009's.
     

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