Audeze LCD2 rev 2 (pre Fazor) Unicorn Edition Measurements

Discussion in 'Headphone Measurements' started by purr1n, Apr 8, 2016.

  1. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Yeah, this is the unicorn LCD-2 for sure.

    The peak doesn't really sound crazy bright. It simply makes the headphone more... proportion, I think. And the fact is it has less ringing than many other orthos I've seen.

    The LCD-2 I tried to fix couldn't ever get to this level. I think I was trying to chase a dead-end, but at least at the end, I resorted to making it less bad instead of following the measurement. Making an LCD-2 perfectly flat is probably the worst idea ever. That dip in the upper mid is necessary IMO. But of course... YMMV.
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    It's true! There is a certain timbre with the Audezes that make them sound wrong without at least a little depression in the upper mids. I actually think the dip should start sooner at the lower mids and move very slowly down rather than have them extend up so far up to 1-2kHz and then take a sudden dump, which makes the mids sound weird.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 8, 2016
  3. Audio Zenith

    Audio Zenith Custom Title KGB

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    Chill, DUDE and then try finding "every other measurement thread" or any thread for that matter where I "keep trying to shill my cans". Distortion issue has been taken care of, well mostly a looong time ago.
     
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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  5. Koth Ganesh

    Koth Ganesh Friend

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    Errr... I own this so how are you going to make it up to me ? ;)
     
  6. Audio Zenith

    Audio Zenith Custom Title KGB

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    Really, was just genuinely surprised as I seriously thought Audeze could never measure like that. At every meet where I heard Craig's pair out of one of EC amps I actually thought some magic synergy must have been going on as I have never heard Audeze product sounding so good anywhere else.
    To those who think I am not capable of liking other's gear wait for my upcoming review of a product whose sound quality simply blew my mind.
     
  7. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    How about I tweak your next headphone for absolutely free, plus treat you to a drink and meal when you come see us at the next big SBAF meet? \/
     
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  8. HitmanFluffy

    HitmanFluffy Hoping to see real genitals someday!

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    "Look at how great my stuff is! These magical LCD-2s are almost as good!"

    You were the one tooting your own horn, I'm just pointing out you can hardly compare this LCD2 pair to your measurements, the Audezes have clearly superior distortion characteristics.
     
  9. Audio Zenith

    Audio Zenith Custom Title KGB

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    Someone is salty ;-).


    [​IMG]



    Well, that's not what you were tooting in your little horn earlier so DUDE you either learn how to backup your own BS or STOP trolling.

    Distortion is a very complicated subject and you don't seem to be able to comprehend that. Please allow me a small lesson and look at frequencies above 5K, as anomalies in that region are waaay more crucial than a small and narrow splash at 300Hz. In fact, with distortion there is just so much more than what simply meets the eye.
     
  10. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Note how both plots are limited by mic noise betwewen ~2kHz and ~6kHz. I'm just honestly curious if you're thinking that a small D2 spike at 8-9kHz (this creates a tone at 16-18kHz !) will have a bigger effect on the sound than this 1% D2 bump at 300Hz. I never heard this particular LCD 2r2 and never heard the PMx2, I'm just curious about your thoughts on this.
     
  11. Audio Zenith

    Audio Zenith Custom Title KGB

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    Complicated question and absolutely no time today, will reply later tomorrow.
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    You guys are funny. No more fighting before I start drawing Singaporeball and Russiaball cartoons arguing about headphones. Keep in mind that Craig's Audeze is a unicorn edition very rarely seen or heard by mortals.
     
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  13. chakku

    chakku Friend

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    It was my understanding that distortion in the midrange was the most apparent and 'audible', am I missing something?

    Polandball being bullied by the great powers for his brand new audiophile power cable please
     
  14. Audio Zenith

    Audio Zenith Custom Title KGB

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    Ok. finally found some time to clarify a few things here.

    @Serious, I completely agree that byproduct of 8-9kHz distortion appearing in the 16-18kHz range may not be audible but if you look closely and compare both left and right channel measurements of this aforementioned LCD-2.2 you will see these distortion irregularities are directly related to FR issues in the same 6-9kHz range. Now look at 300-1kHz range on the same headphones and notice how left channel has a bit worse second order distortion there which also directly affects FR in the same range and is visible even when FR is 1/24 smoothed.

    Let's look at PMx2 measurements under the same light; 300Hz peak isn't transferred into directly corresponding FR around 300Hz nor can we see it affecting anything else down the line. Why is that? I believe the issue at least partially should be attributed to some sort of a measurement artifact. Here is what happens; OPPO diaphragm is oval shaped and knurled on both narrow sides, magnets on both sides are circular as well as the traces (imagine it as a circular planar magnetic diaphragm being suspended like a dynamic driver but only on two sides). When test signals are passed through higher frequency ones are being reproduced strictly by the circular part in a fashion similar to any regular planar magnetic driver but once frequency goes below 300Hz knurled "springs" on both sides of an oval begin to work transferring the motion to a wider area of the diaphragm creating an instant boost in air pressure. That I believe is what measurement system misinterprets for distortion and that is why we don't see any corresponding artifacts anywhere down the line.

    Big question is how audible all of the above really is and to that I can only say we have to listen but we absolutely have to know what to listen and how. One thing is for sure, don't listen to angry trolls.
     
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  15. Bagged Milk

    Bagged Milk Friend

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    There's probably like 3 LCD-2's that sound this good that haven't failed yet anyways, so I don't think the topic of debate matters much.
     
  16. JohnM

    JohnM Author of REW - Rando

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    The FR plot of a loq swept sine measurement is the fundamental, it doesn't include any contribution from distortion components unless the IR window has been manually extended back into negative time to incorporate them, which would be quite unusual. The fundamental provides the reference for the harmonic levels, so one naturally sees an influence from the FR, particularly where the FR dips and the noise floor contributions (which form an inseparable part of the harmonic responses derived from log swept sine measurements) are correspondingly boosted. The appearance of that is affected by whether the reference level of the fundamental used for the harmonic is at the harmonic frequency or at the fundamental frequency, the former being preferable.
     
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  17. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    I think what he meant is that the actual cause for the distortion is what makes it sound worse. That the distortion irregularities correspond to other acoustic problems that are audible. At least that's how I understood it.

    But I also think that in this case the FR irregularities are coupler related and as such - as you said - shape the distortion because of the changing SNR. We also just had this discussion starting here.

    Oh, I always just assumed that the fundamental would be the reference. Why does it make sense to use the harmonic frequency as a reference? To me this only really makes sense when the distortion is mainly shaped by either room acoustics or coupler interaction/problems and the driver/headphone/speaker itself has a very linear FR.
    EDIT: Oh well, just saw the setting.
     
  18. JohnM

    JohnM Author of REW - Rando

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    When the FR isn't flat harmonics are scaled by the level of the fundamental at the harmonic frequency - e.g. if the response has a peak at 2 kHz the 2nd harmonic of a 1 kHz signal gets boosted by the amount of that peak, making it seem higher than it actually is if the level at 1 kHz is used as the reference. Steve Temme presented a paper on that at the 94th AES in 1993, "How to graph distortion measurements". There is a PDF of it online at http://www.pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Ar...pers/How_To_Graph_Distortion_Measurements.pdf
     
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  19. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Yup, this is one reason why I've recently started to provide distortion in percentage (as opposed to db) measurements. It wouldn't be that hard to do graphs relative to the appropriate harmonic as opposed to the fundamental (or excited) frequency. Might be interesting. Then again, is this really necessary? Are we overthinking a solution for a problem that doesn't need to be solved?

    The counter argument is that if there are non-linearities with the frequency response that happen to affect the amplitude of the harmonics, shouldn't this also be factored into the equation rather than discounted?

    For example, let's take a nasty sounding headphone with a massive peak at 7kHz. In this case, any inherent second order distortion at 3.5kHz would in theory be increased by the corresponding FR peak at 7kHz. Since the very definition of second order distortion is "stuff that shouldn't be there" relative to the fundamental, is it proper to measure the second harmonic relative to the FR at the harmonic frequency itself? Why should distortion products which are further exacerbated by frequency response peaks be given a free pass? (Given that a distortion measurement relative to the harmonic in this case would produce a smaller number).
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2016
  20. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    Yes, this is exactly how I felt. To me this only really makes sense when distortion is shaped by coupler interaction/room acoustics, not when the transducer itself is responsible for the FR irregularities. For example a room with a room mode at 42Hz (living room). The amplitude of the 2nd order distortion at 21Hz is also boosted because of this and I think it now makes sense to use the harmonic frewuency as a reference. The question is, do we really hear it that way?
     

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