Discussion in 'IEMs and Portable Gear' started by purr1n, May 13, 2016.
There. I fixed it for you.
Oh, this is very interesting to me. I've found pretty much the same thing, but with different in-ears. That was the reason I gave up on my in-ear measurements years ago. I was just about to make a post how my measurements might match Rin Choi's measurements for BA IEMs like the UERM, but not for DD IEMs I've measured like the RE400 and RE272, but then I actually looked at my data and found... not much of a difference in the raw data besides the inherent 711 frequency response that my coupler doesn't have to the same degree. The difference in the three in-ears (UERM, RE400, RE272) was within 1dB up to roughly 3kHz where insertion-depth wasn't the same accross the measurements. The differences were certainly much smaller than the differences two different couplers for over-ear headphones would yield.
This is pretty confusing to me. Subjectively the DD IEMs have to measure with a bit more upper midrange (especially around 2kHz) than BA IEMs to sound natural, yet the measurements do not seem to explain this. It seems you found the same thing. Maybe it's simply related to their distortion characteristics and I've been foolishly looking at FR plots to try to explain this effect for no good reason? Or maybe it's a phase shift thing as I've found that it can subjectively affect FR when it actually doesn't?
Maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can help me understand.
It's less that the DD IEMs have to measure with more upper mids than BA IEMs to sound natural. Take this for example: The more elevated upper mids on the FDX1 (blue filter) is quite subjectively evident to me. For me personally, it's a matter of DDs being more tolerable with elevated upper mids compared to BAs because they have a more natural distortion profile than BAs. Another reason could be DDs having slower transient response and less attack edge than BAs. If I could, I'd tone down the FDX1 (blue filter) upper mids (as well as the lows) to be more in line with say something like the Ara (deep insertion); but as it is, it's only a minor gripe. For PP8's upper mids, which uses BA drivers, I'd rather kill myself. But as we see in the plots, perhaps the "issue" with the PP8 is compounded by the tamer or flatter bass in relation to the FDX1 (blue filter).
Haven't heard the FDX1, but in this case I also suspect it's mainly the bass and the other FR differences. But when comparing RE-400 vs UERM for example, I find them to sound comparable up to the upper midrange despite measured FR differences. I also experimented with EQ before and found the same pattern: DD IEMs (like the RE272, RE400, Octone) need more upper midrange to sound right to me compared to BA IEMs (like the UERM, B2). It did sound like a FR difference to me, but it's possible it's simply a result of the technicalities and inherent DD vs BA timbre.
I think you guys need to listen to a lot more cheap Chifi DDs vs cheap Chifi BAs & hybrids. That really brings the contrasts into sharp relief
Just tried it with my RE272. Made an EQ profile to match the UERM's response up to 5kHz very closely (based on my own measurements, simple straight 8mm tube) and compared the two. It does work reasonably well, but I still think something is off. I don't think the difference can be explained away by "timbre" or "transient response", either. I think there's a real FR difference, yet I can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe it's not so much a BA vs DD thing, as I feel the RE400 and RE272 also need a slightly different FR. Or maybe it's just placebo. FWIW I did think the RE272 sounded a bit more relaxed in the upper midrange with my EQ preset compared to the UERM, but not the whole upper midrange.
Is it possible that with more absorption peaks even in the midrange (2kHz & 4kHz) get absorbed more than the other regions beside the peaks? I think I need to find out.
The problem is that the coupler isn't your ear and ear hole. What you may have been experiencing could merely be coincidental dependent upon specific IEM and coupler interactions. I have a three couplers, they all measure slightly differently dependent upon IEM.
Yup, that's what I'm trying to minimize. I'm planning to do experiments again for a better IEM coupler. More later.
EDIT: Continued here: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/improving-my-iem-measurement-rig.9367
Well I finally grabbed a pair of Andromedas after about 2 years of wanting them. I picked them up since recently many people have been offloading their V2 and 2019 versions since the new 2020 are coming out. I won't bore anybody with another review of these, I think there are more than enough posts about these, but will just give a quick opinions on these.
Disclaimer: I am using these with SpinFits. I haven't used other tips yet, but these are a pair of tips I am enjoying with them. I also have been using these out of the IPad that was the last model with a headphone jack, and my Galaxy Note 9. So YMMV depending on source.
I understand what people are saying about the hiss when in certain devices. I am hearing a slight hiss when plugged into my Note 9. I don't really mind it, but it is there. I am thinking of picking up an external DAC/AMP or DAP to listen to these with. Maybe I will get an older IPod.
I am surprised with the sound of these. I thought they would be a bit too bright for me, but was wanting to get something that was different than my normal preferred sound signature. When listening I found these to be a very slight V, just enough bass and while the treble is a bit hot, I didn't find it overbearing. The biggest surprise with these for me is the amount of detail. I was able to hear such microdetails that I didn't notice on my Auteurs or HD6XX. Maybe its because these are right next to my eardrum, but I heard things I didn't know was there. An example of this is in the track "Smells Like Teen Spirit" by Nirvana, at the 5-6 second mark, you can hear faintly in the right channel a guitar accidentally start then stop quickly before it comes back in a second later.
I am enjoying these, and while I enjoy IEMs, I think these might be my one and only IEM that I have. I don't use them enough to really try and justify purchasing multiple like I do with headphones. I might pick up a pair around the $100-200 mark to use for commutes but as for my continuation for TOTL IEMs, I think I am done for now! Hopefully..............
The DV amp with stock tubes and the Matrix stage HPA are the worst of tubes and SS respectively these ears have ever heard
I agree. I haven't used the stock tubes in quite a long time; however, I do agree that it is not the best. I am currently saving and should be picking up a DNA Starlett, THX 789, and Gungnir Multibit in the next couple months. I upgraded my headphones so the gear chain is next to get upgrade!
I couldn't find the Note 9's output impedance in a quick search, but OI of your source plays a big role in the sound signature. And many (inlcuding myself) use an iFi IEMatch for sources that aren't at the 1-2 Ohm sweet spot (should take care of that hiss too). Above 1-2 ohms, the balance gets tipped to the treble, below 1 ohm, it starts making the Andros more bass heavy. Most sensitive IEMs to OI that I have ever owned.
Marv had already recommended the OI to be around 1-2 ohm which helped my decision to get a DAP with OI at 1.5 ohm just the beginning of this year. Indeed, 1.5 ohm is the most sweet spot to my liking. None of the bass frequencies overpower the treble and vice versa plus the mids tonality aren’t recessed nor sounding tilted to lower treble at 1.5 ohm. Also, Andromeda is dang sensitive in revealing timbre glare with sources and as such if you’re used to headphones with no glare in its tonality, switching to Andromeda with just a poor source just sound tonally off with the “BA timbre” and poor refinement. To my preferences especially in minimizing that BA timbre and glare, Andromeda needs to be paired with top quality DAPs. I wouldn’t want to add desktop setups for this comparison as it makes more sense to pair IEMs with portable sources instead. I cannot recommend the Chord Hugo2 for those who are thinking of getting one to pair with Andromeda since Andromeda sounds tonally unengaging with it
First of all
You got serious
Let me clear first who I am:
I am in military defense research as acoustic engineer by occupation in my country(dont take it seriously though, I am not a consumer iem tuner.. But I have studied on this topic and I work on iem on daily basis)
The thing is about preferences and I absolutely hate andromeda but find solaris pretty good.
I dont know why you got triggered(I felt like that)
The first thing.
Do you find etymotic bad, then you will find what you say so called Asian tuning bad. And it was set standard to have pinna gain at 2kHz. Harman set it of to 3kHz
Back to fundamental
What is the human fundamental sensitive region
Its 100Hz to 1kHz which by any literature(do search) should remain flat for proper fundamental meaningful sense. And I agree on that because I have tried many iems and headphones.
Andro lacks that(let me be truthful by myself, its shit and bloated thick), Solaris is good on that.
Now you will say Campfire IO is good. I know singers, heard them live in studio and for fun tried IO. And the fuck it changes how singer sound. It sounds like another singer.
Because of that weird pinna gain.
1kHz to 4kHz is pinna harmonics. And neither diffuse field not Harman target was made in Asia.
But all lie on that what so mentioned 2kHz to 4kHz region even after ears of testing. Even heck IE800 does there.
But why IO does that different I dont know
Ok campfire is okay on upper mids and 2020 seemed to be to more improved but still it's a Haze fi, due to that bloat.
Third, now let's talk 8kHz. That thing sounds seriously like clink and clank. Spinfit or foam helps but that pierce.
(8kHz a Peirce cymbal harmonic to showcase how deep cymbal hits.)
And I am indian not specifically you would call Asian(eye, body structure is different)
And I feel andro is pure hype but then Your potion can be my poison
But see.. Neither it sounds great on my benchmark DAC3 + HPA4 with IFI ie match, neither it sounded great on my tube amps.
I am not here to bash it or something
I feel the review of andromeda seems to me like review of Solaris and yes Solaris is tonal way more correct
And I am not against Campfire in general
My favourite iem in campfire were
Because they all seemed to be correct.
Andromeda is like a thick iem tonally shifted to thin metal banger due to 8kHz wrong peak
Thats my impression.
And even spec wise its not great(bad impedance)
Plus all of your andromeda has a higher distorting Bellsing N9005 midrange
Which even make it more untrustworthy for stability test
But I get it @purr1n
Just being honest above and dont want to trigger anybody.
And be respectful to Asian and their tuning. Its only the kids who have damage because every kids like to crank up.
And yah my nephew got hearing damage from andro's 8k, so its not just Asian tuning.
And most of damage is due to 6kHz because it also effect military personel and the pilots
You want the research academic, I have it. Its just that its good to be not weirdly biased to a brand.
You said savant bad.. I kinda liked it but it was okayish and not that great. Not K10
And The biggest factor is how and which tuning you grew up with
That sounds most natural to you
When I move back to EX150 or Panasonic ergo fit, I get this nostaligiac tuning.
And those iem sounds nice.
If your definition of tuning is like blasting upper mids
Then I guess you also hate Sony EX1000/EX800st/mdr7550
I am damm sure you would
Because its your anti tuning
But campfire orion was same to same tuning
See I am fed up with hype shit(everything hyped)
Not just campfire, but other brands..
And i want to talk more realistically and want good brands to see their mistake and correct it. Fanboyism kills brand, critic is what let them.improve
Plus i should stop talking.
That way it will hurt less people who like andro tuning
Can you fix your formatting and structure into proper paragraphs with sentences? I can't read what you wrote in its current form. It look like music lyrics where I would expect chords at the top of every few words. Proper formatting and punctuation are crucial to being taken seriously. Thanks.
I felt like writing in dialogues so you can read easily. But never expected that it would be hard for you
And yah leave Sean olive and Harman
Møller diffuse field peaks at 2kHz
Free field peaks at 3kHz
Yeah. I think discussions may have different context. The Andromeda have a lot of caveats:
0-ohms Zout, it's a bit excessive and thick in the lows.
However from 2.5-ohm Zout from say ZX2 player, the Solaris actually sounds slightly thicker than Andro. It would seem that your experience is different.
Also, mid-treble peak I don't hear so much on Andro because I am using tips with filters that tame this region. It's a crucial caveat that I need to remind myself and others.
4-6k seems slightly tamed on Andro. Solaris even moreso, at least the original Solaris.
As far as Asian tuning, was referring to Asian tastes, what I've seen with the kids when I'm visiting in Taiwan, Singapore, Australia. There seems to be fondness for brighter and bassier IEMs more along lines of Olive's consumer preference curve. Really not surprising. Then again, it could be what you suggested with hearing damage from a young age.
Also, there are other factors outside of FR. Andro is very lively and responsive and lacked veil to other common references such as UERM.
Without tweaks, I felt the Orion tuning was the best from CFA.
Orion was great and I can agree on that too
I don't think Orion was given enough attention and unfortunately cancelled from their lineup. IEMs are weird. It may have sold better if it were priced the same as Andro as an alternative, but with extra jewelry on the housing.
Separate names with a comma.