Crossfeed and Head Tracking

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by ultrabike, Nov 4, 2015.

  1. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    IMO classical crossfeed is not enough. You need head tracking on top of that and a few different filters for a discrete number of head rotaton angles (like the Realiser). They are not addressing this issue in this $55k piece of blingness. But one can always purchase the Realiser at roughly 5% the price of Morpheus and use it with it.

    Furthermore, frequency reproduction is not that slick in all cans I've experiensed. There is room for improvement. Maybe Ourprecious 2 addresses these problems.
     
  2. Out Of Your Head

    Out Of Your Head Friend

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    Sorry to be off topic, but I have a Realiser and the head tracking is OK initially, but ultimately I find it to be more trouble than it's worth. When you are listening or watching a movie, you don't really move your head very much, if at all. Also you need to make sure the head tracker is mounted properly on your headphones and charged up. If you talk to a lot of Realiser owners, a good percentage of them do not use the head tracker.

    I thought about incorporating head tracking in my Out Of Your Head software, but the expense of getting into manufacturing and selling hardware was not worth the limited benefits of head tracking. I also didn't think people would want to pay the extra money for head tracking.

    Most people find the virtual speaker experience with Out Of Your Head works pretty well without head tracking once your brain gets used to the sound of speakers through your headphones.
    -Darin
     
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  3. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I strongly disagree Darin. I have tried a number of head-tracker-less crossfeed approaches. They are not bad and they do provide benefits, but they are still off from the actual speaker experience IME.

    I originally gave the Realiser a try given all the hype, and thought it was Ok. Then I moved my head a bit, and I was at last able to pin point sound location outside my head fairly precisely. This was not subtle.

    One may argue about the practicalities of the solution. But w/o the head tracker one cannot pin point sounds very well IME. I believe LFF explained this best to some extent quite some time ago:

    Indeed, I feel the same could be said about the angle of arrival dependent head transfer functions.

    Moving your head IME helps ones brain to deal with this "Cone of Confusion" thingy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
  4. Out Of Your Head

    Out Of Your Head Friend

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    I don't want to get this thread off topic. We should start another thread to discuss. I am not sure as a MOT if I can even be discussing my own product or the competition.
     
  5. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
  6. briskly

    briskly Friend

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    With points that have the same timing and level differences, either on the cone of confusion or directly in front of the head, the FR at the eardrum is different as the angle to head differs. The pinna is shaped with multiple anti-resonances dependent on direction, as well as frequency differences from the torso and such. It's still kind of ambiguous, but I can hear directly front, top, and back differently without head movement.

    Jens Blauert showed way back when that you can manipulate the perceived source direction on the median plane by boosting the frequency response in selected frequency bands. So it seems natural from the previous that a correct FR is also needed for proper spatiality.
     
  7. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Exactly. You do need those things. And cross feed and stuff do get you something. I've heard it.

    But man, the head tracker deal works! Maybe I was pre-disposed when I heard it. But I still remember saying to my self: "let's give this shit a try" back at Head-Fi's Cash-Jam in Costa Mesa. So I do. Hell, it felt like sound was coming literally from the wall right in front of me. All it took was move my head a little bit.

    Still, $3K. So no go.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
  8. Out Of Your Head

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    Let me explain further...

    Head tracking works, no doubt about it. It is especially helpful for the new listener. When someone first hears audio processing like the Realiser or Out Of Your Head, it can be tricky for the brain to "believe" what it is hearing. Your ears and brain are hearing audio coming from a sound source three or more feet away from you, but visually, your brain sees that there is no sound source at that location, so it gets confusing. But as with Ultrabike and others, when you move your head slightly and the sound source location stays in the same spot, then that helps your brain "believe" that the sound is in fact coming from somewhere well away from your listening position.

    However, I have found that a visual cue is far more effective than head tracking for making the localization of the sound source work. If you see a pair of speakers, for example, it is easy for your brain to believe that the sound is coming from that speaker even if the speaker is not connected to anything. I often have people who demo Out Of Your Head place speakers or even a cardboard box in front of them to help their brain "learn" to interpret what they are hearing.

    Another effective trick that I use all the time is to disable all the virtual speakers and listen to one speaker at a time. With one single sound source, it's much easier for the brain to figure out where the sound is coming from compared to listening to two or more speakers at a time.

    But once your brain gets used to the "out of your head" effect, it's very easy to hear the exact location of the virtual speakers without head tracking, visual cues, or any of the "tricks'. That's why Realiser owners often don't bother with the head tracker since it's no longer needed to solidify the virtual speaker locations.

    Not sure if you've ever listened/watched our demo, but at the end of the demo video is a track which plays each of the 8 speakers one at a time. For most people, the location of the speakers works even without a head tracker. Just put on your headphones and go to this page:
    http://fongaudio.com/demo

    Alternately you can download the Out Of Your Head trial from our website and try it for yourself to see if it works for you without a head tracker. If you do try it, listen to a two channel song and then mute the left speaker so you just hear the right speaker and vice versa to help your brain hear the location of the speakers. You should be able to hear exactly where the speakers are located in the room that we measured. Each room you try will have different speaker locations.

    The front center channel is certainly the trickiest to get right for the reasons stated above by Ultrabike and briskly. And it doesn't work for everyone, but it's definitely possible to get right especially if I do a custom measurement using your ears and head, etc.
     
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  9. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    No, no. Your stuff work Darin. And to be fair, I only listened to the Realiser for some brief period of time.

    It's just that the head tracker left an impression on me at that meet. Luckily I had my pampers on that day.
     

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