Putin's War With Ukraine (and democracy, freedom, self-determination, etc.)

Discussion in 'SBAF Blogs' started by purr1n, Feb 25, 2022.

  1. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    China also has a real economy and they don’t want to lose it. 20% of gdp is exports. 17% is imports. Despite all the nationalism calls for self-reliance, their government debt is very high, they don’t have a youth bulge, a major war with lots of casualties would hugely affect it and challenge the CCP’s doctrine of having restored China to prosperity that it mostly had except for late antiquity, the high Middle Ages when the Mongols took over, end of the Ming and the Manchu conquest, and late 18th through late 20 centuries. A huge amount of casualties would be devastating and the loss of at least Taiwanese money and industry would condemn many parts of China back to rural poverty.

    Russian doesn’t have that level of myth making. Restore the glory of the Russian Empire? How? The Russian Empire came to power by modernizing and beating another crazy aggressive conquest empire, the Swedish Empire. The USSR main claim to legitimacy was Stalin in his paranoia claimed war with the capitalist west would come, the biggest war ever arrived on his doorstep of a guy killing even more people than he was, and his army won in the end.

    How can Putin accumulate such glory? Taking over vulnerable chunks of his neighbors like Louis XIV? He did that and all it got Russia was sanctions. Louis failed to take Spain. Putin failed to take one of the poorest large countries in Europe and left thousands of bodies in his wake.

    Russia’s population has been shrinking for a while, it’s economically weaker than almost all prior Russian state, it decidedly does not have a youth bulge, and the oligarchs got their wealth from stealing it from the people and state rather than through service to the state like Russian feudalism.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 6, 2022
  2. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Instead Putin joins the ranks of despots who left piles of bodies around Eastern Europe. He’s no Trajan, Ogedei Khan, or Basil the Bulgar Slayer. There was no promise of trade and prosperity should the Ukrainians have surrendered to their new overlord. Rather impoverishment. The Romans built roads and the Mongols had personal checks in the Middle Ages.
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    WSJ article on what happened in Bucha. No angle here, just good old fashioned reporting with a human interest story element. People can bitch about mainstream media, but at least we have freedom of the press and brave news reporters and photographers. I think it's pretty fair. Soldiers do bad things in war.

    Russian soldiers were polite at first, but as their losses mounted they turned on the civilian population
    (Sorry about the paywall. Gotta pay for good news)
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia...cha-laid-bare-on-yablunska-street-11649365202
     
  4. dasman66

    dasman66 Self proclaimed lazy ass - friend

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    Good story, fair reporting and probably a very typical story of what happens in every war. The sooner people understand that events like this are inevitable and collateral damage can never be avoided, the better.

    The term war crimes is an oxymoron - war is crime...
     
  5. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Apparently (should I say allegedly?) there is recorded Russian-soldier radio chat about shooting Ukraine soldiers and civilians. Perfectly believable, just as it is perfectly believable that all Ukrainians have not been perfect gentlemen.

    But the stuff that is coming from Russia and its media agents seems to be a long, long stream of lies. Really, they should be more selective.
     
  6. Drakkard

    Drakkard Facebook Friend

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    Alternative view https://waronfakes.com/bucha/
    As a Russian, who also follow some Ukrainian bloggers, and having friends there both on occupied and non-occupied territory, I highly doubt it took place as it being shown (if at all) actually. There is simply no reason at all. And, I'm not sure what western media tells, we do not hate Ukraine or it's people, on the contrary, many do not draw a line between them and russians. So killing ukrainian civilians is like killing russian civilians for most people, army included. No benefits that I can see from doing that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2022
  7. Drakkard

    Drakkard Facebook Friend

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    I see the same from western media as a russian. They are telling stuff about my country that is just laughable sometimes. Looks legit from the distance I guess.
     
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  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    We don't think Russians hate Ukrainians either. If you think that Westerners think that Russians hate Ukrainians, then you've been lied to and should question who is telling you this. But this is war, and shit happens. Soldiers are asked to do stuff from above, sometimes way above, and they need to follow orders. In any war, civilians will be collateral damage. In most wars, civilians have been intentionally targeted because it is necessary to win wars. To believe that no civilians will be hurt is intentional denial.

    We Americans blew up lots of innocents in Afghanistan. Even in the final days before the US retreated, there was a drone strike that killed an innocent man hauling jugs of water along with some children. Personally, I think this was a result of itchy fingers because there was a big bomb from the Taliban a few days earlier that killed some American troops. Occupying troops get targeted by locals. Troops get mad, and indiscriminate shit happens. Has happened throughout all of human history.

    What's next? Are you going to tell us this is a "special operation" as opposed to a multi-pronged invasion?

    Finally, waronfakes.com is bullshit Kremlin propaganda. It's so obvious that it is because it's tailored to people outside of Russia. No Russian, Ukrainian, but instead only offered in English, French, Spanish, and Chinese. Hmmm. There is satellite imagery that confirms some of the photos of dead bodies in the streets of Bucha. Let's just say we can choose what we each wish to believe in and agree to disagree what are reputable news sources and what are not. Let's say that you probably also have zero concept of how reputable Western news organizations work, the fact-checking, the vetting. (And no CNN is not reputable for hard news, however WSJ is). The news isn't always perfect, but if they screw up, they will retract, or worse, be embarrassed and lose credibility (and thus readers and profitability)

    Your leader Putin decided to invade, special operation or whatever. It's turned out to be a shitshow. Deal with it. Deal with the consequences, including Zelensky winning the information war, the war with the hearts and minds of the free world.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 8, 2022
  9. Drakkard

    Drakkard Facebook Friend

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    Yes, there will be. But Butcha is being "marketed" as something special. If it happened at all.
    No, I will not. But I'm quite sure, Putin does not want to occupy it, even if it will happen in the end. Everyone would prefer it to stay neutral territory. There were many chances to make it happen. In the end, it all makes me sad too. No sane person ever want a war, its not middle ages.

    May be I should not read this thread. Just opened it because it appeared among the recent topics.
     
  10. Drakkard

    Drakkard Facebook Friend

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    Mainly it on Russian. This is international part, where most important things are being translated. What of it? It seems you do not trust anything that comes from Russia?

    I was under this belief all my youngth. It slowly drifted in the last 10 or so years that I read what is being written by many of the western media about the events around my country. Possibly WSJ is reputable, but it too had mistakes. I do not take any mainstream media for granted nowdays.

    Its not the world. It is EU and USA. Yes, we are dealing with it.
    Okay, it is starting to be really aggressive. I'm not here for an internet war. It is more personal for me than anybody here, I have many friends there. Still, I was under impression that an opinion from someone who is nearby would be of interest, seems not. Sorry.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2022
  11. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Did you read the WSJ article? If anything the WSJ article put things into better context. Lots of Russian soldiers lost their lives there. Entire destroyed armored column. Civilians were looked upon with suspicion (spotters for artillery). Stuff started to change once the Russian units with the "V"s, not the "Z"s showed up. One street near the bridge over the river made into do not go there zone with snipers. Still, some civilians ended up there for whatever and got shot. Also men being rounded up to check if they were helping enemy.

    If anything, WSJ article emphasizes the general barbarity of war, and actually makes Butcha into something less special than what Zelensky has been saying.
     
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  13. Drakkard

    Drakkard Facebook Friend

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    Yes, it started during the war. What are you trying to prove? You can watch videos and make your own research. Videos are not made by Russians there.
    All the media around me is oversaturated with fakes. You have no idea what is going here. I was called by phone from Moldova number and robot told me something like "this is central bank of russia, sell you roubles now or it will be worse". Fakes are everywhere. Information war is going over the top around here. It is true. So sites like this appear. I'm not saying it is all true. But it may rise some questions. Or not.
     
  14. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I'm not dumb. I know Zelenskyy is playing it up. I also don't blame him because that's what he should do. I just find it amusing that he's winning.

    TBH, I pay no attention to war crimes stuff. USA firebombed Taiwan when it was a Japanese colony. Grandmother tells me of my dad being a small child cry when the bombs started exploding. Hard to believe because my dad was always a stoic guy.

    My personal belief is that if you engage in war and do not commit "war crimes", then you are doing it wrong. WW2 was successful for the victors because of war crimes. All big cities in Japan and most medium cities were firebombed in WW2 by the USA. The nukes did nothing in comparison. I believe in TOTAL war, and this is why I dislike war and believe it should be avoided.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2022
  15. Drakkard

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    As you mentioned, it is paywalled. Even if I want, there is no way to pay for it from Russia now :)
    Thanks for a summary. I'm not drawing my final conclusions where if happened or not happened right now. But I'm very tired of emotional bullshit being poured on us every day. Ukraininan blogger with 3mil. with an active (now banned) political party is gathering info about it now. Already had some stories from his subscribers posted on his telegram channel about this situation, but unfortunately they do not portrait a clear picture as well as of now.

    Well, I do not think he is winning, it is a bit more complicated. Main fight are expected to be next week from what I see. There it will be decided, most likely.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2022
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    No issue with the Russian people. It's just a terrible situation. You've known that I've been a big fan and promoter of gear from Russia. I've always wanted to put Russia on the map of good audio, because I think there's a lot of very cool, innovative, and affordable stuff there.

    Understood. My intention was not be mean-spirited in my "deal with it" statement. It's just what is. Of course the concern is that eventually the Russian people will be hated, and this should not happen.
     
  17. Drakkard

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    I do not think anyone will disagree with this. I'm not talking that Russia is an angel savior. But this situation looks questionable to me.
     
  18. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    I understand your intent. And I appreciate your intent, too. This is just an opinion piece, but i feel it helped shed some light from a Russian ex-patriot perspective:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...l-teach-ordinary-russians-some-german-lessons

    I hope anyone you know is not or has not been in harm's way throughout this, but I also hope you take some time to read or watch some well validated reporting on what's actually going on in the region. Yes, we're not in concentration camp territory here, but the misinformation needs to be actively subverted when it puts ordinary citizens of any country at risk for potential mass murder.
     
  19. Drakkard

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    Thanks.
    I know this opinion, yes. Can agree to some points from that article, but only some. The problem is, western media loves to post stories of ex-patriots, and I do not think I ever saw a story of ex-protester for example. Must be some, feel free to correct me, but seems to be an absolute minority. That's why I feel western media is biased as well.
     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    It depends. Quite a lot of media, even many individuals here including myself, pointed out concerns with NATO overexpansion. You'd have to go back in this thread.

    The problem is now. All those voices disappeared after military actions commenced. I think Putin could have pulled it off if he concentrated on carving out just the eastern and southern strip of Ukraine.

    This is a full 21st century war - this includes war on the Internet, media, etc. And nothing is fair in war.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2022

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