RootMasterSound

Discussion in 'Computer Audiophile: Software, Configs, Tools' started by Valolilol, May 30, 2017.

  1. Valolilol

    Valolilol Acquaintance

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    Hi there,

    I've always wondered (and still I am) why Vinyl and any digital formats are so different, and one day this reference popped out "RootMasterSound" from a company I do respect for its tube amplifiers (Pier Audio). Pier Audio does believe that analog is superior to digital and although it's an arguable point of view, when they put a reference to something "digital", I wondered whether it was a joke or something. It turns out not to be.
    https://www.rootmastersound.com/ has a "Stream" section, there you can compare audio files where the guy performed an audio treatment (a little bit detailed in the rest of his website but don't expect much as it is apparently copy righted). He basically wants something closer to a vinyl. Here again, although the result may be debatable (is it closer to a vinyl or not) I'm not on a high end rig and still was able to hear a clear and enjoyable difference. If you get some free time to taste the difference, please let us know in this thread.
    I think there is a lot going on in here.
     
  2. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    This looks like gobbledygook to me, but I'll reserve judgement until more experienced people take a look at it.
     
  3. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    That website is damn near incomprehensible in French, let alone English.

    It's also largely information-free.

    From what I can gather, it's a DSP process, appears to involve conversion through up-sampled DSD (DSD1024 and DSD2048), with some other processing applied - including dynamic range expansion (which, at best, involves a lot of guessing, and at worst is a simple scalar function), and like many of these things (MQA being another example) ... it's impossible to do any kind of useful comparison without the ability to use the tool with your own files.

    Without having the necessary masters, and the ability to compare them directly, it's just another case of taking things on faith.

    That might be okay ... if the provided samples demonstrated what's being claimed, but throwing a bunch of them into the player, randomizing the pairs, and choosing which I liked best ... well ... that didn't turn out so well at all. The "CD" versions consistently were preferable. Which tells us absolutely nothing since for all I know the "CD" labelled versions of the files could be different masters, fiddled with, or they could be the "RM" processed versions in disguise (despite being smaller files).

    On top of which, they don't sound remotely like vinyl anything.
     
  4. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    I listened to the Smells Like Teen Spirit and Dido remasters posted on the YouTube channel. They sound like shit.

    From what I could gather from the broken english on the site this process involves upsampling to DSD, re-mixing and EQing and then decimating back to PCM. Crossfeed is clearly implemented on the Dido track to give the illusion of depth, and it just straight up sounds worse than the CD I own.

    The "widescreen dynamics" are just added bloom which makes Nirvana sound like mud. There's a V-shaped EQ which makes it appear even louder than the CD.
     
  5. CHALARON

    CHALARON MOT: rootmastersound

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    There s nothing deeply explain about how I process digital files to match high end vinyl
    You might understand I have my own way
    Also I don t remix ; I only got left and right channels from the cd i post
    Then I appy a SAME COMPLEX algorithm for any CD
    Only EQ can differ
    It s true that only when the sound becomes loud A v SHAPED eq MIGHT APPEAR
    It happens with Nirvana cos it s alway loud

    About EQ you might be surprised how digital masters and analog masters can differ Same between 2 records company delivering high end lps

    About youtube posted videos are from 2014 The first generation of RM
    sounds nice but confused and slow

    Those from 2017 are sucessful Now they match some best lps

    About digital recordings from 90s as for DIDO and NIRVANA and others what more to expect than the original HD audio format?
    Maybe a better analog sounding
    RM can bring that solution
     
  6. CHALARON

    CHALARON MOT: rootmastersound

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    There s nothing deeply explain about how I process digital files to match high end vinyl
    You might understand I have my own way
    Also I don t remix ; I only got left and right channels from the cd i post
    Then I appy a SAME COMPLEX algorithm for any CD
    Only EQ can differ
    It s true that only when the sound becomes loud A v SHAPED eq MIGHT APPEAR
    It happens with Nirvana cos it s alway loud

    About EQ you might be surprised how digital masters and analog masters can differ Same between 2 records company delivering high end lps

    About youtube posted videos are from 2014 The first generation of RM
    sounds nice but confused and slow

    Those from 2017 are sucessful Now they match some best lps

    About digital recordings from 90s as for DIDO and NIRVANA and others what more to expect than the original HD audio format?
    Maybe a better analog sounding
    RM can bring that solution


    dynamic range expansion (which, at best, involves a lot of guessing, and at worst is a simple scalar function)

    The dynamic range is scaled to 45rpm responses Check rickie lee jones jeff buckley and pink floyd
    No guessing at all

    Without having the necessary masters, and the ability to compare them directly, it's just another case of taking things on faith.
    I have had copies from masters eveb after I made the RM from the CD releases
    The RM sounds very very close to the masters

    I invite you to listen to the RM again
    Sincerely
     
  7. CHALARON

    CHALARON MOT: rootmastersound

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    I've always wondered (and still I am) why Vinyl and any digital formats are so different
    Not always For instance if the original is hi res digital format
     
  8. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Unless you have access to the original master for the specific recording you're processing, then you're absolutely guessing about what the original dynamic range was. That information cannot be deterministically recovered after the fact. There's nothing wrong with that from a "this processing changes the sound" perspective, but it's still a guess as to what went on originally for any other recording.

    Not to mention that dynamic compression doesn't have to be applied uniformly to any recording.

    If you're just using a fixed profile to scale dynamic range, and that profile is derived from specific sources, then it has no relation to any other recording and, is, again, simply DSP of a form you find appealing.

    In which case, the dynamics of those recordings is necessarily limited to THOSE RECORDINGS. They don't apply to the next recording, or the one before it. You can't take them from one piece, apply them to the next, and expect them to be the same.

    Which means that, unless you're going to have a processing model for every individual recording (which is completely untenable), then picking a random recording and applying your process to it isn't getting you back to anything approaching the original signal and is, as already posited, simply a specific set of adjustments/DSP.

    More importantly though, it's irrelevant, from our perspective if you have the masters or not. We can't make a realistic comparison unless we do. And without provenance there then you're into the world of "because he said so".

    ...

    Listening to the posted samples, I didn't find anything that sounded "more analog" or "like vinyl". On top of which, with random paired sampling, I didn't choose the "RM" version of the file as my preference once.
     
  9. Dino

    Dino Friend

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    It is a bit more complicated than that with Nirvana releases. CDs mastered from 1989 through 1992 were not what any reasonable person would consider "loud". They got a bit "loud" in 1993 with "In Utero". The "From The Muddy Banks Of The Wishkah" CD released in 1996 is where they got really "loud". That continued with the CD releases of previously unreleased music (with the exception of "MTV Unplugged In New York").

    @k4rstar mentioned listening to your "Smells Like Teen Spirit". The 1991 mastering is not "loud" (DR11) the 2011 mastering is "loud" (DR6).
    "MTV Unplugged In New York" is the only Nirvana album recorded digitally.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
  10. CHALARON

    CHALARON MOT: rootmastersound

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    About Nirvana I made reference to Smells Like Teen Spirit The mfsl sounds fast and centered

    Dynamics RM doesn t recreate the same missing dynamics
    It depends on many factors
    The processing model is established BUT the attitude towards tracks (More or less compressed) is not as linear as on can imagine
    To compare CD tracks to the RM delta volume (RM-CD) can be UP TO 6db
    Sorry for my english
     
  11. CHALARON

    CHALARON MOT: rootmastersound

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    You will notice that Dynamics is only one of 6 important points I consider
    to return full analog qualities of sounds
    It s not about being faithfull to a 24 192 khz original recording that are available
     
  12. Dino

    Dino Friend

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    The MFSL sounds brighter than the original mastering, to me. I like them both, but prefer the original.
     
  13. CHALARON

    CHALARON MOT: rootmastersound

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    Unless you have access to the original master for the specific recording you're processing, then you're absolutely guessing about what the original dynamic range was

    you are right and as only few people might know the true dynamic range, I developed at least a higher dynamic range than the one I usually found on the digital market;
    the one 45rpm lps can deliver for instance
    I recently RM on G Mahler 5th symphony the first minute is enought relevant to understand in general CD V RM
     
  14. CHALARON

    CHALARON MOT: rootmastersound

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    which one sounds punchier?
     
  15. Dino

    Dino Friend

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    I'd say the 1991 and MFSL "In Utereo" are the same in that department.
     
  16. CHALARON

    CHALARON MOT: rootmastersound

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    ATTENTION
    1 YOUTUBE RM IS FROM END 2014
    updates are on rootmastersound.com

    2 RM AND ORIGINAL CD ARE NOT VOLUME MATCHED FOR COMPARISON CD VOLUME SHOULD BE LOWER (SOMETIMES UP TO -6db) THIS IS DONE ON MY WEBSITE
     
  17. CHALARON

    CHALARON MOT: rootmastersound

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    Thanks I will soon post the latest RM on NIRVANA Are you inerested to hear it?
     
  18. Dino

    Dino Friend

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    Yes. (As long as it is not based on the 2011 mastering. I never want to hear that one again.)
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
  19. CHALARON

    CHALARON MOT: rootmastersound

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    So what is your email ?
     
  20. Dino

    Dino Friend

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    I don't want to do this.
     

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