SBAF DAC Talk II

The burn-in is already done on a used DAC, and we're now into just warm-up. I'm guessing a few days? And NOS is really what that DAC is made to do, but maybe penguins doesn't want to taint his perception of it until he can experience the whole enchilada?
I2S in, XLR out, NOS mode is the full rock-'n'-roll mode on the Spring 2.

 

I sold my Spring2 lvl 2 because it was too soft for my metal and a few rows in the back more than I would like and now looking again for a DAC..After selling it I have been listening to my old RME- adi 2 and can't really enjoy the sound anymore because I just miss the weight/density of the r2r sound, with the rme it's like hearing a ghost.

Would a Yggdrasil or a Pontus be a better alternative to mitigate my main issues without loosing in detail to the spring?

 

Great way to put it - I totally feel the same way. I haven't heard a Pontus, but Yggdrasil puts out a solid, weighty, fleshy sound that you can sink your teeth into. The soundstage is also closer than the classic R2R stage. Based on your two criteria, seems like a good fit.

 

Thanks and what about in the highs/air department how would you describe? that was another of the holo faults.

 

Guys I'm full retard and I need help regards DAC's. I did receive an utopia and was able to snatch Luxman P1U from the used market, but my view on DAC's was a bit ignorant and I've learned the hard way. Bought smsl M8 which can basically make my ears bleed, than went for topping e30 - way better, but kind of numbs things and kills a bit of liveliness in music. Now I'm thinking of upgrading and stop draining money down the toilet with these random cheap'os. I've tried to read through about dacs but there is such a huge amount of info that my braincells are literally dying(my english is not at best too)

What I need ? A good dac, if one day I could use it with speakers as well when I'll get bigger apartment that would be additional plus ( no need of bluetooth/mqa/flashy screens). It can be vintage/older than me if it gives a good run for the money.

DAC's that are recommended here I see 4000$ and up which would leave me eating breadcrumbs for the rest of the year. Budget around 1000$, but I could stretch another thousand if it gives a noticable upgrade. Thanks in advance

 

Bifrost 2, smallish and amazing value. IMHO the Schiit DACs are a solid option, even if you aren't specifically looking for multibit.

Next time, use the advice thread.

 

Have you considered the Burl B2? It's not R2R, resolution and some technical performance details are not as good as Yggdrasil (I haven't heard a Pontus before) and the sound may be a bit much for some people (hard to describe - but see B2 thread here) but overall a great DAC and I enjoyed it with metal music. It does not sound thin or have that ghost sensation you mention. Otherwise, can't really go wrong with a Yggdrasil for performance/price ratio I guess but the Yggdrasil A2 will sound warmer vs B2 and you will get other aspects of Schiit house sound (good if you like, bad if you don't).

 

Update on Holo Spring 2 Lvl2. Using pi2aes -> I2S into Spring2 -> SE outs into Stellaris (mine doesn't have BAL in). Has been on continuously except for 10 min since initial post.

Conclusion:
- I like the way this sounds with my Stellaris for "enough songs" that I'm keeping it. Happy that my DAC hunt is finally over for now after trying almost 10 DACs. However, I am still keeping the Yggdrasil A2, a DAC that I don't think synergizes that well with the Stellaris, on the other amp input. I still want a Soekris 2541 later as well, so no, this DAC doesn't scratch all the itches. I do not want to spend $ on a "better DAC" in the $20-25k+ range after exhausting known to me non-ripoff options in the $2-5k range.

Other:
- Not as good on paper as the WL or some of the other DACs I tried. This actually wouldn't be the first or second DAC I recommend in the ~$2k-5k range for someone.
- Overall performance slightly exceeds Yggdrasil A2 with a better input. Roughly what I said before, if Yggdrasil is 91, this is now a 92. Sound is absolutely a very different sound from Yggdrasil or most other DACs I've tried.
- Bass is not as slappy as before, but it's still a little slappy on some songs. Bass is also weird sometimes with deeper bass, drops, electronic music, etc. I don't know what words to use and I don't want to say it feels hollow b/c it's not. But I guess it doesn't feel fleshed out throughout the entire bass region - bottom of bass is good, go up 5-10Hz and it feels recessed and missing, go up 5-10Hz more and it's somewhat there, so on and so forth. (I can't say this for any "SBAF" reviewed DAC over $1k and some non-SBAF reviewed DACs I've tried as well).
- Other complaints still valid but to a lesser degree. Also, to be explicitly clear, PRaT can still be better. It wasn't bad b/c cold or optical input. I do not have a strong urge to groove along to too many songs.
- I don't explicitly dislike NOS, and I do think it's technically better on this DAC as others have said, but I still prefer OS on this DAC for about half of my music.
- I2S is probably the best input, AES is a close 2nd.

 

I might be the only one even mildly curious about this one, but Grimm has finally released their UC1 converter after years and years of development:
https://www.grimmaudio.com/pro-products/pro-converters/pro-uc1/

 

200-2000 bucks for something not made in China gets you anything from very solid entry level gear and cd players to amazingly detailed stereo pro hardware. Yamaha does not f**k around and I've never heard of Schiit melting.

Made in China? You get something with muntzed components, junk knockoff caps, and substitutions with pirated crap you can't even buy here outside of "winning" an AliBaba lottery. The prototype and cherry picked review units might have been tolerable but they get substituted quickly because you get what you pay for and the OEM needs to pay bills and compete on cost with the other OEMs.

Anything with Lelon and Yuscon can gtfo. Anything that costs thousands with Jamicons in the signal path can gtfo

 

Yeah man totally agree. RME is very over priced that offers very little value by todays standards when compared to the rest of the market. Their conversion tech is a bit long in the tooth. MOTU is known for offering for great value for the best bang for your buck without compromising quality not to mention its domestically made right here in the States a true American product. MOTU pretty much makes the same Pro DSP interfaces as RME at a fraction of the cost. Not to mention long term Driver support, something that MOTU has historically been known for as they still supported all their early 2000s interfaces well past 10+ years. I remembered the original 828 firewire interface that came out in 2000 was supported on Mac for 17 consecutive years and 15 consecutive years on Windows.

I've used and owed several different interfaces for many many years and the modern MOTU AVB stuff is the closet to the Apogee stuff in terms of digital conversion. I have the 828ES AVB interface and it does tick a lot of boxes out there for its price and I use to own. I use to own an Apogee that I abed side by side with my 828ES and they were sonically close with similar sonic characteristics esp in the midrange frequencies and low end. Its got a very dynamic bottom end with an robust punch with bass frequencies. the Highs are softer not harsh or sterile sounding. But the Apogee did have slightly more clarity in the highs and slightly wider stereo image but it wasn't night and day, very subtle differences. Many of the Focusrite's I've used like the Forte USB and Clarett 8Pre Thunderbolt interface I owned in the past sounded a bit on the brighter side. They both seem to sound if some of the midrange was scooped out a little. The SSL2 interface I demoed as well sounded to0 bright, including the mic pres. I also have some extensive experience with the original Lynx Aroura 16 at my buddy's commercial studio I worked as an in-house Producer in the past. The last time I've used the Aroura was back in 2014 and my MOTU AVB stacks up fairly with the Aroura that isn't behind that's just as good.

I've also had the same experience as you as the MOTU 828ES AVB interface is one of the most stable interface I've used on Windows 10 to date. I've tested it on several Windows machines including Windows 7. Very rock solid, No clicks or pops, crashes, BSOD. Nothing like the older MOTU legacy hardware from the early 2000s that had issues on Windows. The Focusrite and Audient interfaces I've used were some of the worst in driver stability.

 

The current Apogee stuff is way better at all price points than pretty much any other interfaces except the current Lynx lineup and the Apogee Symphonies have more detail but more of a sound. They’re a better buy than the MOTU unless you can only get USB, are whacking off playing amp sims, digital synths, or use Windows and can’t get the channel count you need from the Duet 3 and Symphony Desktop. The DA is wider, clearer, and less warm. The AD is incomparably better. The MOTU AD is pretty much lofi in comparison The detail increase cannot be denied. Apogee uses better chips, analog parts, clock, and less weird drivers.

RME writes the best drivers out there but all of their DACs except for the ADI-2 Pro are very mediocre. The multichannel interface conversion is total crap in the treble but at least full range. The high end on them sucks but the recent RME otherwise more detailed than stuff like UAD and Focusrite. The AD is clearer than MOTU too. The digital volume control kills more detail than MOTU and mixer is only slightly less annoying to use but way more stable.

Focusrite Clarett and Red DAC are closer to RME non ADI-2 Pro DACs (same gross minimum phase AK codec chip filters to try to cut down on latency) and warmbutt like MOTU ADCs and really not worth it outside of the Clarett 2 pre if you have exactly 400-500 bucks, the Octopres, and a rednet Dante system if you’re too cheap for Prism or DAD.

UAD is it’s own animal with decent drivers and mediocre AD and DA. AD is clearer than the MOTU, DA is weird. It’s colored and super overpriced for sure but is fairly plug n play on a Mac.

Steinberg has good but not great drivers and sound is it’s own lofi thing. What’s good about it is for cheap interfaces, there is very few junk parts inside. Yamaha is still Yamaha and they are a better buy than the multichannel Focusrites at either price point and you won’t find much Chinesium inside, unlike RME.

The real elephant in the room is parts and analog design. Most of these interfaces are lofi crap, including the MOTU ADC somewhat. Many of them have noisy power supplies and your computer can always contaminate everything too. Most of the ones that are not are literally based off of 20 year old converter chips or 40 year old opamps, eg Dangerous, UAD, Steinberg, Metric Halo, and Prism (cleanest treble around but outmoded for raw detail). It’s physically impossible for these to have comparable ridiculous amounts of detail due to the rising distortion from the analog stages in the high end. A Schiit modius has more potential for raw detail with a modern converter chip and LMEs than these but may or may not achieve it with all recordings due to the implementation and lack of special digital sauce.

Some of the better pro stuff with newer and better ic opamps are Apogee, Lynx, Lavry, Bricasti. The OPA1612 stuff from Apogee and Lynx is really f'ing good. The AD opamp stuff from Lavry and Bricasti is really f'ing good. These will typically use some discrete components too if they can or an actual oven in case of Lavry Golds. Companies that work magic with discrete components are Burl and Crane Song. I mean literally magic as what goes through those two sounds better than before. They’re that great and extract detail and texture you didn’t know was there.

 

I have the RME Babyface Pro FS and actually like the sound more than the ADI-2 Pro (though haven't heard the FS version of that one). Babyface feels more neutral to me, whereas the ADI-2 Pro hard a harder sound to it (not edgy, but a stereotypical "clinical" and "dry" sound). Some friends of mine got the newer ADI-2 DAC which supposedly sounds better as well, but I haven't really had ears on it yet.

I have a Focusrite Clarett on semi-permanent loan to SBAF that's floating around somewhere. I forget who has it right now, but it's up for grabs if someone wants to play with it.

Totally agree with Psalm about the Prism treble. Super clean, and "airy" is the word I always use. It's immediately engaging for me, but after an extended listening it start to feel fuzzy.

The Crane Song Solaris was boring to me. Like, I recognized that it was clean and detailed and did everything right, but somehow it just didn't have that extra bit of something to hold my attention. Supposedly the Solaris Quantum is the latest iteration which is supposed to impart some sparkle for whatever that's worth, but the prices are sky high.

I'd love to get my hands on a Forssell again for comparison. I really really liked it when I had it. Great warmth without being muddy, and great width/separation to the sound, pulled slightly forward which was good for headphones.

I got an SPL Mercury in just recently. First impressions: spacious, not as wide as the Forssell but deeper, more neutral tonality, air nearly matches the Prism without the fuzz, detail just as good as the RME, great localization (such as with the common vocalist + instrumentalist(s) combo), but overall I feel like it's still missing something? Slightly crowded in a typical rock piece with lots of competing sounds. But I recently sold my benchmark amps so my point of reference needs a bit of recalibrating. Or maybe because this was an expensive piece of kit and I'm riding super high expectations.
edit to add: not only does it do deep staging well, it also does deep sound really well
edit 2: I really wish it had a digital loop out though, which would make comparisons easier
edit 3: usb is the best input to my ears so far (chained through a Schiit Wyrd)
edit 4: no fatigue from long term listening

 

From my past experience with Apogee and the Classic Lynx Aroura 16 I agree to a certain extent but the MOTU 16A had a lot rave reviews of many previous Lynx and Apogee owners that switched over to the AVB stuff. No one has complained about a drop in quality that switched. The 16A has always been constantly compared to the 1st gen Apogee Symphony i/O by several owner's esp on the big purple site. A lot of Pros are using the MOTU AVB stuff that's in major studios in LA, major performance venues, used by some A-List Artist's etc. Now the MOTU AVB stuff is finding it way in Post Production / Immersive mixing just like Focusrites Red and RedNET Dante interfaces as there are some people using them in their Dolby Atmos rig as their core interfaces.

 

I forgot to mention Dr. Dre use to own two classic MOTU 828 mkiis and a Time Midi piece in his studio and still made some big records with them. Some times its not always the gear what you use. Its the matter of talent at the end of the day.

Then you have Veteran Multi-Grammy Award Winning Record Producer Ron Fair that has a very minimalist setup using the Presonus Quantum interface. He's not using Apogees, Lynxs or any of the AVID converters and still gotten a great sound. He's the man behind hit songs such as Black Eyed Peas - Where Is The Love? Ft. Justin Timberlake, Mary J. Blige - Be Without You, Vanessa Carlton - Thousand Miles and all of Keisha Coles stuff he produced.

 

The 16a is just 1500 bucks and far from sucks.

 

The Presonus stuff all sucks. Don’t kid yourself. The quantums have noisy preamps and low detail. It’s way worse than every one of its competitors. I’d rather have a Steinberg UR824 or the current usb c one because they’re more reliable ime despite bad treble.

 

Did you even watch the video and listen to the recording of what Producer Ron Fair produced for the band using the Presonus Quantum or are you just blindly talking out of your bottom hole?

Brief history.. Ron Fair a well respected name in the music industry is like the closest thing to Quincy Jones that can write out the charts and conduct the orchestra. He also managed and ran several major labels as a Chief Officer, President of Greffen, RCA etc. He's also an Executive Producer, Musical Arranger, Conductor, Musician, Music Executive.. He's been in the business since the 1970s that worked on the Rocky Movie soundtrack. He went from working on a large SSL format console to a Presonus Quantum and still produced great sounding recordings from his private studio in Nashville. He also discovered Christina Aguilera, Fergie and Keisha Cole and signed them that is responsible for putting them on.

Let's be real, if you can't get a decent recording of what you already have, then maybe music aint for you because all types of big records have been recorded through all types of equipment no mater of the brand or manufacture. So many big records have been made entirely on an Apollo interface esp the Weeknd. Even big records recorded 20 years ago on converters that were a lot worse than todays and those records still sounded great. Talent maters the most that trumps everything. If you don't have the talent then find a different profession. You can have all the fancy gear in the world and still produce a mediocre record if you don't have the talent. Just speaking real honest facts.

$1,500 for a 16A is a lot cheaper than a Dante equivalent. Dante interfaces are more expensive because of the additional licensing fees to use the technology.

 

@kasami08, obviously you haven't yet met @Psalmanazar. He's cranky, but he knows his shit.

Also, are you afraid to say the word asshole? We're all adults here.