Schiit Yggdrasil Less is More (and MIL and OG) Impressions + Measurements

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by purr1n, Sep 9, 2021.

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Should SBAF get a loaner Yggdrasil Less Is More?

  1. Yes, please!

    74.0%
  2. Only if there isn't anything else more interesting

    13.5%
  3. No, I would prefer for a loaner an overpriced planar that looks like it's from House Harkonnen

    7.3%
  4. Save up for something better

    5.2%
  1. sphinxvc

    sphinxvc Gear Master (retired)

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    Hahaha, thought I deleted that but you caught it. Restored.
     
  2. internethandle

    internethandle Rando

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    Ordered LIM early yesterday, although it appears that Marv was right about hopping on now, as I just checked the Schiit site and LIM is now listed as shipping in 12 to 16 weeks. Unsure if I got in under the squeeze or not, wasn’t paying attention at the time. Doesn’t bother me much either way, though.

    For anyone curious, under Chris Connaker’s write up over at Audiophile Style, both himself and another user posted some pics of the LIM boards while installing them that have a pretty good view. I was surprised how populated the boards remain given the extra room nixing discrete affords the layout.

    Edit: should clarify that the 12 to 16 week backorder for LIM seems to be for upgrades. If you order a whole new LIM Yggdrasil at the moment it’s listed as 4 to 6 weeks.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 19, 2021
  3. JeremiahS

    JeremiahS Acquaintance

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    How do the LIM compared to something like the Sonic Frontiers SFD-2? From what I read here it seems that seems Schiit tuned this DAC to sound closer to these top-of-the-line vintage DACs.
     
  4. leafy

    leafy Acquaintance

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    LIM passed the 48hrs mark (I really would like to call it Yggdrasil Moffat, since it's what Mike chose). Sound has rather stabilized, in a very nice way. I would say that:
    • Articulation
    • Realness
    • Plenty of quality bass
    are what I like the most about the upgrade. I get what @purr1n was saying about it being the perfect day-to-day but not boring DAC. It's still fed via a Pi2AES, but TV TOSLINK out sounds nice too, watching TV using LIM is also very enjoyable.

    @Michael Kelly just a wild idea to throw out there. Since there has been encouraged conversation to collaborate between Soekris and Schiit, can the same go with Pi2Design and Schiit? One idea is to actually license Unison USB Output stage to integrate into Mercury as the USB output, since it's basically a CM4 carrier board that will be different from a standard RPi anyways.

    Reason is that I don't ever see myself going back to spinning disc again, it would be pointless to purchase the Urd just for the sake of the multi-USB input and I believe there are many out there in the same boat. If this integration ever happens, it would be a great option for users who won't go back/into CDs and the Pi2 products can stand apart from other offerings in the market.
     
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  5. Michael Kelly

    Michael Kelly MOT: Pi 2 Design

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    I have not spent any time looking at improving the USB output of the raspberry pi. For obvious reasons, it wasn’t an area that we were focused on. Now that we will have standalone integrated boxes, it might be something to look at. Obviously creating isolated USB and low noise power supplies are actually pretty straightforward. I don’t know what else unison encompasses as it may also do software level improvements that is beyond our expertise.
     
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  6. kukur9

    kukur9 Acquaintance

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    Yikes. This is exactly my experience with speakers. Well, crossing my fingers that using balanced outputs will compensate for this design choice. My LiM should be here in a couple weeks.

    I don't pretend to understand or even begin to relate how much all the extra bit processing results in more reverb/air, but if you include the sense of realness and the sense of a performer's "body" in your definition of soundstaging, then I want BOTH high frequency info and clear articulate bass.

    Also to your point about low bass @sphinxvc , there's really lots to enjoy down there if you can hear what a bassist is playing (jazz, rock, pop, hip hop, some electronic). If the bass lines are articulated well, you hear each note and it becomes part of the whole making it all so much more enjoyable. I recently discovered my system is lacking slightly for some reason, and it makes me sad for how much I'm missing out on. Less defined low bass comes across as blurred or more of a hum changing pitch. When you can hear how the individual notes complement the melody, it's literally hearing your favorite songs anew.

    Preaching to the choir here, I'm sure. Anyway, thanks sphinxvc for sharing your impressions as you wrote.

    BTW, I thought I knew what "organic bass" meant but I am not so sure now because there seems to be a distinction raised here about organic bass vs. what LiM brings. @purr1n , would you mind explaining the "organic" bit again?
     
  7. kukur9

    kukur9 Acquaintance

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    <post error - sorry>
     
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Super Friend

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    Bloomy lows going to lower mids. Think 300B tubes. Too organic or organic with the wrong setup = warmpoo. Organic with lack of articulation and smeared lows = murky.

    For example, the Eddie Current Black Widow, Zana Deux SE (with certain tubes), or even the BA with the ElectraPrints can be said to have organic lows. The DNA line of tube amps can also be said to have an organic sound by virtue of their bloomier and wetter voicing. The AG-D NFB-1 attempts to mimic this organic character, but we end up with murky smeared compressed poo: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/audio-gd-nfb-1-head-amp-impressions.5117/ Many PCM1704 based DACs also had this organic character, which in the end I found annoyingly too murky and termed it "PCM1704 bass" in a derogatory way.

    Lots of people like the organic sound and other people do not. There are some who felt the Yggdrasil A2 was one step forward and two steps back from the A1 because of its more organic and less neutral sound. It's really a matter of setup. Organic voicing + HD650 can be too much of a good thing. However, organic voicing + dry sounding headphones (Utopia, HD800, etc.) often works well.

    LIM isn't organic sounding. It's tilted dark, it's somewhat harmonically rich, but the lows aren't what I would call organic. I'm not a top octave air guy and find excess top octave annoying and unnatural (e.g, Modius, RME ADI2, Solaris, HD800, etc.), so the LIM suits me fine. I wonder if folks would be disturbed with the LIM if they came from delta-sigma DACs.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 19, 2021
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Super Friend

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  10. schneller

    schneller Rando

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    @sphinxvc what is your complete chain? Which Dynaudio speakers are you using? I have Contour 20 (2016 model), powered by the NAIM Supernait 3. Yes, I know Schiit pairs well with NAIM.
     
  11. Justin S

    Justin S Facebook Friend

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    Sort-of-DS-guy here. I had an ADI-2 in my work suite for quite some time and recently went to a J2 (um...more better). I have a lot of hours on both. I just spent time with the LIM in that system burning it in before bringing it to the home system. The LIM is different, for sure. The sense of space is really remarkable, but not a circus for me. When I did the same office burn-in with a BF2 from the ADI-2, I was weirded out by it. This was not the case with the LIM. I found it really clear, articulate and super engrossing - like the sounds in the sounds are legible if that makes sense. In addition to this, there is zero confusion in complicated passages.

    I have a few pages of notes to write up about A/Bing the LIM with a 2541 in my 2CH system at that I will put together in the coming days and a little comparison to do for @GoodEnoughGear with my Genelecs. Short story - coming from other DACs, the LIM and Schiit filter take some getting used to, but I find the LIM really self-consistent. Everything sounds like it belongs.

    There are many great things about the LIM with speakers (I'm a tiny monitor-style guy - Genelec 8020s+7040 at work and P3ESR XDs+T7i at home currently). A big surprise is in the bass. I use a sub at work and in my home system. I use a combination of REW + the feels to integrate them. Despite measurements in my home sysyem, I have the sub turned way down as it quickly becomes pleh-overbearing. With the LIM, I found myself turning up the sub a bit as the bass was so detailed, controlled and full of texture. It never feels out of place, and never overbearing. I have no idea what the mechanism is here, but it's a real change in the way I am experiencing bass.

    So DS to LIM. It is a real change in the sense of staging, detail, bass texture and all the little things that make things sound present. The shift from DS to LIM is nowhere near as shocking as the shift from DS to the BF2. That DAC broke my brain when I first heard it.

    I've been chasing a thing with the Holo Spring, Denafrips Ares, Gungnir Multibit A2, BF2 and now the LIM. I really should have just bought a Yggdrasil earlier.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 19, 2021
  12. schneller

    schneller Rando

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    @Justin S so you're saying that after fumbling with all of those other, you finally "made it" with LIM?
     
  13. schneller

    schneller Rando

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    Question answered.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2021
  14. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils Best SBAF member of all time

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    Immediately.

    You can write two things in one post ;)
     
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  15. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils Best SBAF member of all time

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    Last edited: Sep 20, 2021
  16. sphinxvc

    sphinxvc Gear Master (retired)

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    @schneller - chain details are in the 2nd paragraph of my post. On a side note, try to keep your posts well researched and meaningful. We like high signal:noise ratio here and there are no extra points or achievements for posting a ton. Seems like you're not new here but just thought I would point it out all the same.
     
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  17. Justin S

    Justin S Facebook Friend

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    My comment was a bit glib. It was more figuring out what I really wanted than fumbling - though there was certainly some fumbles along the way. So far, the LIM is what I have been searching for. I may not have felt that about the A2 based on all of the well-documented listening reports here and elsewhere. It is a number of things, but ultimately it's the "normal++" experience of the LIM that makes me think I can live with it. It's still pretty new, though.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2021
  18. Cellist88

    Cellist88 Friend

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    @rhythmdevils Now that you've gotten some thoughts down, is it possible for you to run a simpler chain just balanced to the cavalli gold balanced input? I know they are running through similar chains, but I always have reservations on any added component on the sound quality. Like when I put a goldpoint preamp and I could not stand the sterility. I also decided not to get a PiAES because I thought it would be too incisive and harsh, because the Yggdrasil A2 was already approaching my limit using a USBridge to Unison. Anyhow keep the impressions coming!
     
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  19. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils Best SBAF member of all time

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    I probably won’t do this to be honest. I only have a silver plated copper XLR cable long enough without completely rearranging my gear. And that would be worse especially since a big difference I’m evaluating is timbre and silver cable is god awful. I also use my iems every day so I’d have to put it all back.

    the Jensen iso max transformers are used by everyone here and are supposed to be transparent. I actually bought a second P0-2XR just to compare these two DACs. And my switcher is badass. It’s no goldpoint. It has premium Elma switchers, all occ copper internal wiring, rhodium plated RCA jacks. Handmade by a member here. It’s got 500$ in parts alone.

    I would be interested in hearing if there is a difference so I’ll think about it :)
     
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    Last edited: Sep 20, 2021
  20. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    I was under the impression that the iso max does change the sound, just that it sounds better than the summing in the DAC. However LIM shouldn’t need the iso max at all as the SE outs should be good as is, right?
     

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