The Knife Thread

Discussion in 'Food and Drink' started by GoodEnoughGear, Jun 4, 2018.

  1. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    So I wound up getting the Kramer Zwilling 7" FC61 last year for my birthday and it is currently my favourite knife. It sharpens more easily than my Miyabi SG2 knives and I seem to develop a better edge on it. My sharpening skills get me up to 4k on the Knifewear/Naniwa stones (I have an 8k stone but can't feel any difference) where I can push cut through computer paper. With the Kramer I can just barely cut through paper towels with a careful draw, but it's not smooth yet. I'm not able to get that level of sharpness on the Miyabis.

    Typically before any use I will do a couple quick passes on a ceramic honing rod. Strop only when I'm feeling fancy. I'll do occasional touchups on a 3k or 4k stone though it's more of a zen exercise thing than purely for sharpening at times.

    I think I'm at roughly 10 degrees on both the Miyabis and Kramer.

    Feeling like I should get a nakiri because apparently I just want more toys.
     
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  2. JK47

    JK47 Friend

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    You understand... "This is the Way"
     
  3. Dzerh

    Dzerh Friend

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    I think 13C26 can take a finer edge then SG2.

    IMHO, 10 degree per side looks like really excessive for any kitchen work (except, may be, for dedicated meat slicers). On both blades the edge will deteriorate too fast, one will mostly roll and another chip, plus corrosion. But, from another side, it creates more justified opportunities to sharpen knives :)
     
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  4. famish99

    famish99 Friend

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    I'm not familiar with the former, but confirming that SG2 is kinda crap at taking a fine edge. You can get it razor sharp, but it holds it for like 3 cuts before it reverts to working sharp for a long ass time. Even when at razor sharp something about its grain structure keeps it from getting super sharp like carbon steel or even AUS10 or VG10.
     
  5. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    A chart I've kinda compiled for myself from a couple different sources...

    upload_2023-1-31_10-44-44.png
     
  6. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Though to be fair, the SG2 working sharp is still really dang sharp. My AEB-L Kramer starts sharper, but dulls quicker.
     
  7. Wobbletits

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    Ceramic honing rod is basically a ceramic stone with very small contact area it is probably lower grit than your 3 or 4k stones, if you enjoy the zen of the occasional touchups it might be better to strop on them instead of using the ceramic steel before use. Though I pretty much just use strops and stones and only hone my german knives where it actually folds ;/ I probably have way too many stones.
     
  8. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    Need some possible suggestions:

    Tried a bunch of knives in Japan recently (and purchased a few as well) but didn't bring home "my ultimate chefs knife".
    - Still want something similar to a Kramer Meiji from Zwiling or a French style chef's knife with a large body and continuous gradual rocker similar to the Kramer for <$350-400ish. Ideally from a small US mfg or smith.
    - Ideally 225-240mm (~9-9.5in)
    - I don't have a real preference between Japanese vs Western style handles, but I really don't like the handle or the handle to blade transition of most of the Kramer knives - else I'd probably have one already. Kramer Meiji because its the only one with a transition I liked better.
    - Would also prefer that it be thicker than a Kramer and is either textured or scalloped so food doesn't stick. It doesn't necessarily need to be the scalloping on say a Glestain, but that would be ideal.
    - Don't want anything particularly heavy or light for the size, would prefer something slightly heavier than a Kramer.
    - No real preference between stainless vs carbon. Not a steel snob but would prefer something "at least" VG10 level.
    - Doesn't need to be flashy or pretty - this will be getting actual use.
    - Polished and rounded off spine, at least towards the rear, and around the bolster area.
    - Also, just to clarify my understanding of a French chefs knife - they have a more gradual curve throughout most of the belly of the blade whereas German is a larger flat section towards the back and a relatively steep rocker towards the front? It seems like most people prefer a large flat somewhere in their chef's knife, but I have found over time that I prefer the French style instead of Japanese or German with a gradual curve throughout most of the belly of the blade and prefer a nakiri when I need something relatively flat.
     
  9. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Super late reply, but how about something like this:
    https://northarmknives.com/product/alder-8-inch-chefs-knife/

    or maybe this guy (he is local to me)
    https://fehr-forgeworks-inc.myshopify.com/collections/culinary-knives

    North Arms is a small father-son team in BC. I don't have any of their kitchen knives, but do have their folder and paring knife which are excellent.

    Fehr is a blacksmith from my town. I chatted with him for a while at a local market and his chef knife feels excellent and has that rocker feeling you're looking for. I don't have one of his knives yet, but we're discussing a combo deal for a few of them. A friend of mine does own a chef and EDC knife from him and they are his favourites in his collection.
     
  10. Dzerh

    Dzerh Friend

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    Wow, Alder, 8-inch in S35VN, interesting. Not sure why they stopped at 58-60RC, though. 61RC for this steel promises better edge retention and better toughness. May be for easier sharpening?
     
  11. Armaegis

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    I'm guessing you're referring to Larrin's post about S35VN here... https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/01/13/s35vn-steel-properties-and-how-to-heat-treat/

    But that post is relatively new, and there's enough scatter in the results that while the curve looks strong, I wouldn't say it is a particularly strong trendline. It could be that when North Arm first started using S35VN, 58-60 was considered optimal. Speaking as a guy who's done a moderate amount of heat treating and testing (not for knives, but back in my grad school days in material science), even following specific heat treat recipes rarely lands you exactly on those hardness numbers. You have lots of variation even within a batch, nevermind the crystalline structure underneath. Heck, even the calibration of the machine matters, and if you're being conservative you knock the numbers down a peg with some error bars for good measure.

    In any event, I've spoken with the guys at North Arm and they are planning to move onto Magnacut for their Alder and Sitka knives when they use up their stock of S35VN. I currently have their folder and paring knives which are Magnacut, and I believe some of their hunting knives are Magnacut now as well.
     
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  12. Armaegis

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    The growing collection...

    upload_2023-8-10_23-20-31.jpeg
    black handles from left to right: Zwilling carving knife, Kramer/Zwilling stainless chef (AEB-L), North Arms Trillium paring knife (magnacut, G10 scales)
    wood handles from left to right: Miyabi bread, chef, santoku, paring, all SG2 steel, cocobolo pakkawood
    bottom: North Arms Skaha folder (magnacut, fatcarbon scales)
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2023
  13. Armaegis

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    upload_2023-8-10_23-24-26.jpeg

    Fehr Forgeworks (local blacksmith to me)
    left to right: paring (AEB-L, Indian rosewood), petty (AEB-L, bocote), nakiri (AEB-L, bocote), chef damascus carbon steel (Manitoba maple burl, stabilized)
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2023
  14. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    Btw, what's your take on Chinese cleaver type knifes? Any advantages over a European chef's knife?
     
  15. Armaegis

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    One of the handiest things with the Chinese chef knife is that it acts as a great big scoop to move things around quickly.

    My father worked as a chef for decades and would cut things with the Chinese chef knife and toss it into the wok as he was cooking. I'm just not fast enough to do that without overcooking or burning what was already in there. Strangely, once he stopped working as a chef, he stopped using the Chinese chef knife and just uses European chef knives now. I asked him why doesn't he use them anymore and he said he just doesn't like them, which seemed odd to me because they were his primary knife for so long.

    My cooking tends to be slow and methodical and I favour regular European or Japanese style knives. I cut things up, put them into a side dish or tray (usually takes me a couple scoops with the regular chef or gyuto), cut up my next thing, put that into another tray, etc. Small things like garlic or green onions are really annoying with a European chef knife and I wind up scraping with the back side of the knife into yet another bowl. With a Chinese chef I can scoop up or even scrape with the blade side and get almost all of it.

    To me, the biggest hurdle with the Chinese Chef is that your hand position is higher up. I'm on the shorter side of things, so having my hand up just that extra bit does fatigue my arm and shoulder more quickly and I don't feel as confident in my movements.

    On the flip side, they do feel "safer" in a way. Like there's so much surface area for you to rest against, there's a certain tactility in the extra heft which isn't too heavy, just weighted in a different way. Plus mentally I don't baby it and I can chop heavier and scrape things and just shrug it off, which I can't do with my SG2 knives because even though those ones are suuuuper sharp, they can get chippy if I'm not careful.
     
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  16. ergopower

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    What @Armaegis said. I do an Instant Pot meal every week. No matter what it is, I saute a medium onion first; and I throw in a decent amount of baby carrots to whatever the recipe calls for. I find the Santoku to be much easier to use on both. I cut the onion into 4 slices then chop; and arrange the carrots into rows of 4 then quarter. I push them off the cutting board with the back of the knife. For me, the lesser curvature is easier.
     
  17. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    The elders among my carbon-steel knives in regular use are both now over 40 years old. The one that is now a four-inch blade probably started at five, but I don't remember.

    Not bad for blades that are admittedly higher-maintenance than stainless!
     
  18. Syzygy

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    Thanks for sending me down the metallurgy rabbit hole (AEB-L). Found knifesteelnerds.com via it, great site.

    That nikiri looks very nice! (though I don't care for the handle shape)
     
  19. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Some more data to feed the neuroses (and easier to digest than knifesteelnerds, though grossly simplified)
    https://www.bladehq.com/blog/knife-steel-guide/
    https://www.bladehq.com/blog/comparing-steels/

    This one is also great:
    https://scienceofsharp.com/

    I didn't like the look of it either, but after holding it in hand it was quite comfortable for me and I wound up getting the petty to go with it.

    Handles are such a personal thing though, so it's not really something you can recommend.

    I like fat Kramer handles, and my favourite is possibly the Wusthof Ikon handles.
     
  20. Armaegis

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    I tried four nakiris this weekend... just waving around no actual cutting.

    loved the copper accents on this, flat grind all the way down
    https://knifewear.com/collections/nakiri/products/takeshi-saji-vg10-shinchu-damascus-wa-nakiri-165mm

    the balance was better on this, very interesting forge/grind on this where it's thicker in the middle then a hollow grind down to the edge
    https://knifewear.com/collections/nakiri/products/masashi-kuro-damascus-sld-wa-chestnut-nakiri-165mm

    this was surprisingly very handle heavy, you can see the tang actually thickens, makes the blade real flippy so it's dextrous but doesn't have heft and I'm not sure how I feel about it
    https://www.zwilling.com/ca/zwilling-kanren-6.5-inch-nakiri-54033-173/54033-173-0.html

    my favourite and felt the best in hand, I guess I'm just a slut for Kramer
    https://www.zwilling.com/ca/zwillin...ss-6.5-inch-nakiri-34892-173/34892-173-0.html
     

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