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100$ usb cables recommendations? worth to pay more? suggestions!

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by murphythecat, Jun 20, 2018.

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  1. Gruss Gott

    Gruss Gott Almost "Made"

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    I'm really hoping that DMS3 videoes a test at RMAF with Paul, the CEO of PS Audio - Paul has been a long time proponent of USB cables and claims he can blind tell the difference.
     
    Gruss Gott, Sep 12, 2018
    #61
  2. Ardacer

    Ardacer Friend

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    If the tested cables are all within spec, there is a sample of hundreds of Pauls that satisfy the power test and have appropriates statistical confidence p of at least <0.05 in a double-blind randomized trial(s), preferably even a meta-analysis of several such tests, then yes it can be considered that it's very possible it can be discriminated blindly, and it's time to rethink the science and start looking for explanations and mechanisms of why this is so, and unknown as of yet.

    One dude at a convention?

    IDK, might convince someone he's a prophet, start a religion :)

    Depending on what the benefits are and how cool the robes are, I might consider applying for the position of a cable bishop, regional for Europe.


    Now, I have the issue here with "blindly". I don't think anyone can hear shit blindly - with regards to working properly within spec digital cables.

    As I said, I do like quality cables, very much, when I can see them. It makes me feel all tingly inside. I enjoy my music more.
    I don't need some special explanation to convince myself that it makes sense. Not everything has to.
    No reason to fool oneself, I believe.
     
    Ardacer, Sep 12, 2018
    #62
  3. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    You and I have not talked much @Gruss Gott but to put it succinctly, I don't disagree with @Kattefjaes.

    As far as $100 usb cables, I would not buy them. I don't care about exemplary shielding (or whatever) as long as the system (transmitter, cable, receiver all together) yield a low BER that meets the standard, and the connector does not go to shit + fits nice. Also, I hate stiff and thick wires. They destroy connectors over time.

    If you have to pay > $100 for a wire to send data from A to B, then the world has really gone to shit. In fact, if that was the case, USB communications standards are broken. They are sick and nobody should use USB. Obviously this is not the case.

    (This kind of reminds me of the early HDMI days. Monster had a field day. When Monster became inexpensive and had a BestBuy sale, I bought one of their fat and colorful HDMI cables for my father-in-law. It broke one receiver HDMI connector in record time).
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
    ultrabike, Sep 12, 2018
    #63
  4. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    The USB interface also provides power, and noise can couple at the transceiver and receiver. There is nothing the cable can do to fix that. The only thing the cable can do is protect against alien noise and provide little loss and parasitics.

    If your transmitter is blowing monkey chunks and your receiver cannot do shit about it, then buy yourself a better transmitter and receiver for maybe less than $100. Or pay more for a complete upgrade if you want more features and even better performance, the likes of which replacing the USB cable alone cannot do.

    This is not about "religion". This is about figuring out what is broken in your system and fixing the bigger problems. Don't bark at the wrong tree. There maybe cases where the fault is the cable. Good for you. That's likely a cheap and easy fix. Don't make it an expensive and frustrating one.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
    ultrabike, Sep 12, 2018
    #64
  5. Ardacer

    Ardacer Friend

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    I guess that's directed at me. It was just a stupid joke, nothing more. I wasn't serious.
    Otherwise, good advice for the OP. Much better ways of spending that cash, if it needs to be spent in the first place. I'm still mostly for the Spwath soup advice.
     
    Ardacer, Sep 12, 2018
    #65
  6. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    LOL! no worries. I actually did not direct that post to you.

    But its indeed better not to bring up the audio "religion" stuff. It can be taken as a joke at the expense of someone and that's not very productive.
     
    ultrabike, Sep 12, 2018
    #66
  7. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Oh crap. PS Audio - Paul is a > $100 USB cable proponent?

    My respect for PS Audio just dropped to new lows.
     
    ultrabike, Sep 12, 2018
    #67
  8. Ardacer

    Ardacer Friend

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    Went to check who that guy is, here he is in an interview with George Lucas.
    I've seen some interviews with him before.

    [​IMG]

    Anyway, check out the dipole sub / ribbon array these guys are rocking. I bet this shit is very dope :O.
     
    Ardacer, Sep 12, 2018
    #68
  9. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    John Atkinson, George Lucas, whatever. Potato, Potahto.
     
    Senorx12562, Sep 12, 2018
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  10. skem

    skem Friend

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    Hmm. Never realized George Lucas looked so much like Paul McGowen
     
    skem, Sep 12, 2018
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  11. Gruss Gott

    Gruss Gott Almost "Made"

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    That's cool, I'm just providing the semi-technical info on how timing and data errors can occur and everyone can make their choice ... but then I'm also not a digital signals engineer with years of experience in digital audio so nobody should take my word for it.
     
    Gruss Gott, Sep 12, 2018
    #71
  12. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    No worries. I don't feel like I have the right to lecture you, "mend your ways", or convince you of this or that.

    But I do have some of those credentials. And I do have my opinion.

    BTW, if you are experiencing drop outs, excessive noise, or distortion, other than USB cables, what do you suspect is causing you trouble?
     
    ultrabike, Sep 12, 2018
    #72
  13. Gruss Gott

    Gruss Gott Almost "Made"

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    Me too! I'm an ee by education and training and I work in silicon valley with lots of networking and digital signals engineers who design digital audio products for consumer and military applications ... I can connect up my laptop to their awesome equipment and they show me the yuck. When they explain everything to me I'm always reminded how little I know, so I slink away and take solace that they probably have no idea how intercoolers work. It's not much, but it keeps me from crying.

    When it comes to USB cables, I think they're important; not more important than good DACs, Amps, source, etc ... but they play a role after all that stuff.

    But that said, always willing to listen or read technical data of how/why it's impossible for an in-spec cable to improve audio quality (which is, I'm assuming, your opinion)
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
    Gruss Gott, Sep 12, 2018
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  14. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    And they fix the yuck with > $100 usb cables?

    BTW, I'm a graduate level EE (digital communications and digital signal processing and other stuff). I'm active and have been since right out of college (and in between). I don't like to talk about what I do, did, and may do. So that is as far as that goes.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
    ultrabike, Sep 12, 2018
    #74
  15. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Because if USB cables made such an impact in audio quality, your $18000 audio measurement system from which your technical data comes from, would come with a > $100 USB cable. But it doesn't.

    (Same goes for other equipment.)
     
    ultrabike, Sep 12, 2018
    #75
  16. Gruss Gott

    Gruss Gott Almost "Made"

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    Fair enough - it'd be great if you could walk through why you believe it's impossible for anything greater than an in-spec to improve audio quality

    For example we can see from Bob's USB cable testing thread that cables < $100 vary quite a bit in their performance, especially with squeeze tests and such ...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    We also know that given iso-async we won't be asking for any repeats, and then there are the timing errors that could happen ...

    And we know that the form of data errors kinda look like this:

    Looks good:
    [​IMG]

    No look good:
    [​IMG]

    So is the argument that there are too few errors to matter and no timing errors?
     
    Gruss Gott, Sep 12, 2018
    #76
  17. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Can you show me some actual BER numbers as a function of USB cable (vendor and make) instead of this?

    Transmitter/Receiver needs to be the same, not some cooked up bullshit.

    (Also, the 0's and 1's plots are too obvious and simplified. And that's an understatement. I already provided to you with some of my background. Do better, with real plots from real USB cables that do meet USB standards.)
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
    ultrabike, Sep 12, 2018
    #77
  18. Gruss Gott

    Gruss Gott Almost "Made"

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    That doesn't seem like the key question ... if we're going to agree on an absolutist statement that USB cables (beyond in-spec) can't help, then we'd have to believe this:

    There are no possible signals errors in data or timing - with an audible impact - that a better connection could fix.

    If, on the other hand, we DO believe there are audible errors that a better connection COULD fix, then we're talking magnitude and bang/$ ... Which is a different, and non-absolutist, discussion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
    Gruss Gott, Sep 12, 2018
    #78
  19. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    My position is that maybe such and such cable makes a difference, and maybe it doesn't (mosquito fart or not as these differences may be in a BER test). There is no "believe" or "absolutist" religious like expectations. You are the one that "DO believe".

    Whether I give a rats ass or not what the outcome is, that is a different story (because so far my cheapo USB cables have not given me anything to bitch about). Which means I don't even have a donkey shit in the race, and further reduces my need to "believe" or care.

    And I'm still waiting on your BER data to support YOUR technical arguments, which YOU said you cared about and which are key to YOUR technical discussion above. Not mine.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
    ultrabike, Sep 12, 2018
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  20. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    This is evolving into the classical unproductive and boring "cables" discussion.

    It gets old.

    If you ever find a comparative BER test for USB cables @Gruss Gott, then start another thread. If you want to discuss subjective comparisons between different cables, also start another thread.

    This one is now closed. The OP has already plenty of feedback.
     
    ultrabike, Sep 12, 2018
    #80
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