Adventures in Downgrading

So I was all set to sell off the Bifrost and live with the SU-8, at least until I could get something better. I almost wavered when someone on Discord suggested using the optical input on the Bifrost, and when I did it was noticeably softer and more delicate sounding. Interestingly because I now had the coax output on the streamer going to the SU-8 and the optical going to the Bifrost and both of them plugged into the Pendant, I could now switch between them with perfect level matching, which was an interesting experience. At least with the Bifrost in NOS mode and through optical, the two DACs really do sound much more similar than I would have thought through my non-level matched listening. (And I’ve only been doing sighted, non-level matched listening, not any sort of testing. I’m being about as scientific here as humoral theory or phrenology so take that for what it’s worth in all of this.) But even with the soft tubes there was still that bothersome bit of itchiness with the Bifrost I couldn’t get rid of.

And then I started playing around the HQPlayer. At first, I put in a couple settings and then some different settings and was like that sounds pretty good and then I switched around some other settings and had to pick my jaw up off the floor.

Here’s the thing: HQPlayer didn’t get rid of the itchiness. It’s still there. It’s a bit smoothed out, but not gone. But somehow I don’t care as much. Maybe it’s the newitis or something, but it’s just HQPlayer made the Bifrost sound like a different DAC, more holographic, smoother, more detailed. I’m honestly shocked, when people talked about HQPlayer improving the sound I honestly was like how much of a difference could it make really? I don’t want to go too far into hyperbole, but I think the jump in quality with HQPlayer is bigger than the jump in quality when I went from the Modi+ to the Bifrost. It’s frankly shocking, and since I’m still in evaluation mode where I have to restart the program every 30 minutes, this has been completely free. Like if you have a NOS DAC and you haven’t tried HQPlayer you really need to. I used to be like it’s crazy this thing cost $300, and now I’m like “this is only $300”? (Of course, that’s also on top of the cost of the rather good computer I have, but I already have that anyway. And even if you were going from zero, a Mac Mini would probably run it fine, and a $600 Mac Mini plus $300 HQPlayer is still heckuva lot less than, say, the $4,750 you’d pay for an M Scaler.)

Thus I’ve not only failed to downgrade, I’ve cost myself more money because I’m going to pay for HQPlayer.

There is another problem though: HQPlayer is not compatible with AirPlay and Volumio doesn’t support the NAA protocol HQPlayer uses to stream music, which means I’m back to using USB which never sounded as good as coax or optical through Volumio (despite the support for higher bit rates). So the next step is seeing if there’s another piece of software I can install on my Pi+DigiPro box that supports NAA to see if I can get this any further refined (without paying more money).

Another problem is that when I watch videos through HQPlayer the sound is out-of-sync with the video, which means I to not use it if I want to watch anything through this set-up, which is annoying. (Not sure if anyone’s found a solution to this, might need to do some more Googling.)

I did start messing around with EQ as well to reduce the impact of the itchiness and found that on the HD6XX, adding a treble shelf above 8K and a dip around 4.5k seems to help a lot, and on the Kantos I move the dip down to about 3.6k and make the treble shelf a bit heavier. The Atrium however I discovered after experimenting doesn’t seem to actually need it—probably (I realized after looking at Crin’s graph for it) because it already has a ~4.5k dip and a treble recess. Well, these are my favorite headphones for a reason.

Still, at least for now this makes a Bifrost sound I can live with. HQPlayer→BF2→Pendant→Atrium is pretty damn heavenly. I’ll keep the SU-8 around for now—it’s still a more “relaxing” DAC than the BF2, it’s easy to unwind listening to it, though this seems to come with a kind of pillowiness in the dynamic impact that once you hear it you can’t unhear it. And I actually discovered while messing around that it has good synergy with the Magni+ which has a little bit of grain at the top that the SU-8 seems to sand off. I actually did have a moment of vertigo plugging the Atrium into the SU-8/Magni+ stack and thinking “this sounds incredible, why do I have all this expensive shit” before I plugged back into the Pendant and remembered why.

Yet, this all also makes the R26 more tempting as an upgrade, since it has the bitrate that’s supposed to be more “compatible” with HQPlayer (whatever that means in actual listening terms) and has NAA support built in. That said, at least for now, I don’t feel like there’s a pressing need to get rid of the Bifrost anymore, especially if I can further improve things by getting HQPlayer working on the Pi. So that’s nice.

 

Since no one's buying my RebelAmp, I pulled it back out and hooked it up to the SU-8. So this combo, fed by coax from the Volumio streamer and playing some mellow jazz, is like slipping into a warm bath with a cup of herbal tea with some scented candles burning. So smooth and relaxing. Doesn't have all the qualities of the BF2/Pendant combo that make you sit up and take notice, but chill as hell.

 

Asgard 1 has the same properties and was purchased here for a meager $50 if we want to talk about downgrading. Things don't have to be expensive in order to have a pleasant sound.

 

I don't suppose you've ever opened up the Rebel to see what OPAMPs are used?

 

There's pictures of the internals on the product website, though I'm not sure if you can tell what the opamps are. Honestly, I don't even know what I'd be looking for.

 

The OPAMPs are the little black square things on the very far right, just par-hidden by the casework. They are the voltage gain of the amp, and largely determine the sound.

I'm still just baffled by the idea that an amp based on the M3 is as chill as you describe. I have OPA1611 in mine currently, and chill just isn't a word that comes to mind. So, just curiosity as to what's what.

 

I think the Rebel Amp is designed with discrete ouput stage? I had a similar experience as @Eric Rosenfield , Rebelamp to me was a pretty warm, a touch bloomy, smooth "chill" presentation to it. It actually was too much of that in my system at the time, and had me selling it.

 

It's basically an M3. OPAMP gain, directly driving (i.e., no diamond buffer) MOSFET output.

Main difference vs the M3 is no active ground, just a traditional split rail. Uses Takman carbon resistors which might also affect the sound. But which OPAMP is in there remains elusive to my searching.

But there's also other weirdness I don't understand in the design; why the hell are there four sets of full wave bridge rectifiers? Almost seems like an entire set of power rails just running the output and gain relays.

 

Just for you, I opened the thing up and took some pictures (and also discovered it needs some serious dusting). I think this is what you're looking for:

 

Oooooh. Yep, that's what I'm looking for, IC1 and IC2, the little ones with 8 legs. But I can't quite make them out in the photos. Can you read what they say eyeballing it?

 

Here's a higher-res close-up


CB10A 2052 1535 I think?

 

Still hard to make out. Looks like an Analog Devices logo and D810A, so perhaps an AD810? Not something I've ever seen used in audio.

I'm still confused, but that's clearly my problem, not yours!

 

Just with some basic Googling I think it's an Analog Devices LTC2052 op-amp.

I'd open it up again to get a closer look, except in the process of replacing the cover, the power drill I was using on the screws sheered off the top of the screw bit and now it's stuck inside the screw and I can't get it out.


This is of course why I should never be trusted around power tools or really tools of any sort and don't go near the DIY or modding stuff...

 

Yikes. But yeah, that's a top DIY tip for the day, never a power drill on small screws!

 

Alright, I finally just got too tired of the Bifrost 2 itchy treble and I'm selling it off (along with the Audiolab 8300A I also bought and has too "bright" a presentation, but I'll probably write more about that in another post later). I did order a Cyan 2 instead of the Gustard R26, it's less expensive (at least if you want it new, and therefore with a return policy) and Holo seems like a safe bet, and when I discovered that the R26 didn't have wifi and I'd have to do NAA with like a wifi extender plugged into it since I can't run an ethernet cable to my desk that made it seem like it wasn't worth paying the extra money over just getting a separate streamer with the Cyan 2 at some point. (Also I still hate hate hate the asymmetrical design of the R26 faceplate.) Until the Cyan 2 arrives though, I'm just using the SU-8 and it's fine and has no treble fuckery to speak of.

 

Probably the last post in this thread from me, as I actually succeeded in "Downgrading" for once and it closes the loop on this conversation.

As usual, my methods are as scientific as a toddler trying to determine the best tasting mud in the garden.

So I got the Halo Cyan 2 in January and enjoyed it. Sounded amazing, depth and soundstage for days, texture and detail, and dead neutral sounding (though less "fun" and "tubey" than the BF2). Enjoyed playing with it with HQ Player and seemed to enjoy DSD better than PCM even though that's not the consensus. Did get a Matrix X-SDIF 3 DDC because I didn't want to deal with streaming AirPlay anymore or trying to find something to do NAA, and despite the galvanic isolation of the USB input on the Cyan 2 I noticed an improvement by adding the DDC and going from it to the Cyan 2 via I2S.

After CanJam I bought a HeadAmp GS-X Mini (shocked that I preferred it to the Schiit Mjolnir 3 at CanJam as I talked about in another thread) and then was surprised that at home it sounded harsh in a way that it didn’t at CanJam. I chalk this up to HeadAmp at CanJam using a Brooklyn Bridge 2 DAC with it, a DAC that on its own sounded oversmoothed and plasticky while with the GS-X Mini it sounded perfect. (Also CanJam just isn’t the best place to evaluate gear, is it?) Anyway, it made me think there was something that might be improved in the smoothness of my DAC. So after some research I decided to try two DACs I liked at CanJam for their smoothness which I would get on an easily returnable basis—the SMSL VMV D2R and the iFi iDSD Neo.

But to make a long story short on the DACs, the iDSD Neo sounded good but not nearly as good as either the Cyan 2 or the D2R (losing out significantly on stage and depth) and surprised me by sounding distinctly bright in comparison contrary to its reputation. The Neo does have great features though with the built-in head-amp. It also has the ability to play DSD direct, unlike the D2R, which means I can use properly it with HQ Player.

The D2R was a much more interesting case though. Because the Cyan 2 is “better”. Like the D2R is big and deep and wide, but the Cyan 2 is bigger and deeper and wider, and there’s more detail and texture, and it’s definitely more neutral. It’s just more impressive. It was illustrative hooking both the D2R and the Cyan 2 up to the two inputs on the Pendant and volume matching and switching between them. This illustrated not only how similar DACs sound when volume matched (especially in the first second or two before your brain adjusts a bit, like it seems like very rapid A/B switching could convince anyone that all DACs sound the same while if you just listen for a bit you can clearly hear differences). But also underlined for me the differences. The Cyan 2 is more impressive, you switch over to it and you think “wow” because things open up a bit and is less relaxed. But the thing I realized was that after a while I was noticing fatigue and feeling the urge to switch back to the D2R. And this would happen every time after a while.

The VMV D2R is just the least bothersome, least fatiguing, smoothest (without being oversmoothed and plasticky) DAC I think I’ve ever heard. It’s just comfortable. And it has a warmth and fullness that the Cyan 2, with its strict neutrality, doesn’t have. (Moreso when both RCA and XLR outputs are set to on rather than one or the other, which apparently changes the output impedance, though the difference is very small.) The Cyan 2 is better, but I enjoy the D2R more. And since the D2R (which I got on sale) is much less than the Cyan 2, it’s technically a successful downgrade!

The DACs didn’t fix the GS-X Mini enough for me and I ended up replacing it with the much cheaper Aune S17 Pro which is honestly pretty great, it’s basically has that big, warm, class A sound that I liked from the RebelAmp but is an improvement in every respect, particularly in soundstage. And since the S17 Pro is less than half the cost of the GS-X Mini, this is a successful downgrade as well (though I actually got the GS-X Mini used for not that much more than the S17 Pro new). When I started listening to the S17 Pro, I was like “maybe I don’t need the annoying tube preamp anymore, this is great!” but then I turned the Pendant on again and was like “no, tubes are better”. Tubes are just better, it’s very annoying.

I decided to put the iDSD Neo in my living room for now (replacing the SMSL SU-8) though I’m considering trying downgrading it to the SMSL D300 which has the same chip as the D2R because I like that so much. The Cyan 2 was too big for the living room and not worth it for that use case, so it’s sold. (And sold quick—like 10 minutes after I listed it, fasted sale I ever made!)

It’s true I can’t use HQPlayer with the D2R and HQPlayer is amazing, but on the other han it takes away another source of nervosa, as well as the complication of dealing with HQ Player, which never got along well with the X-SPDIF 3, introduced lag so I had to turn it off when doing meetings, and sometimes didn’t function at all without a restart, and other minor annoyances. (Also of course the higher end settings would noticeably slow down my Mac when trying to do something processor-intensive.) Maybe simpler is better even if it’s not chasing after every last ounce of sound quality.

It’s weird because much of what I heard about SMSL before trying their stuff is that they’re the same generic, measurement chasing Chi-Fi as Topping, and their stuff sounds harsh and clinical. And yet that hasn’t been my experience with the two SMSL DACs I’ve tried. The D2R is anything but harsh and clinical.

I often think about an article a read a long time ago by a food critic who liked well-done steak. And being a food critic, he met a lot of chefs and other critics who told him that well-done steak was crap, that it ruined the flavor of the steak and was a crime against beef. But it didn’t matter. Well-done steak was what tasted best to him.

Now, I’m not saying the D2R is as reviled by culinary professionals as well-done steak. I think it holds up reasonably well against other DACs in the price category. But I kind of understand why it’s not a “meme” DAC, I can definitely see people thinking of it as boring in comparison to the BF2, iDSD Neo, or the Cyan 2. It sounds amazing but it doesn’t “show off” in the same way. And yet it’s the DAC I want to listen to.

 

If nothing else this saga does open the door to some curiosity about SMSL DACs because I share the same preconceptions about their gear. Glad you eventually found something that works for you-- these threads have been fun to read along with and are pretty helpful insofar as triangulating your preferences goes, though I have to admit ignorance of a lot of the gear heretofore discussed. Kinda curious how it'd be received by other folk, mainly those more inclined towards a polite sound signature.

 

I'm also glad you were able to find something that works for you. It's challenging as there are so many different combinations and possibilities of putting together a setup, so definitely kudos to you.

FWIW - when I was starting out in the hobby, and working through chi-fi gear, I always favored SMSL and Aune stuff over Topping any day of the week and could always pass that type of Pepsi challenge. To me there is just really something wrong (lifeless) about Topping implementation.

 

Heard the same thing from a buddy. He compared SMSL's SU-1 and Topping E30 II (both using the same ak dacs), and heard similar results, specifically that "the topping was just bland while smsl was dynamic and airy." muy interesante.