Adventures in Downgrading

Further adventures in downgrading (or Adventures in Downgrading part 2):

So (not downgrading) I got the ZMF Pendant amp on loan and liked it enough that I decided to keep it. Definitely a meaningful upgrade over the Rebel. When I started playing with the Pendant, my first concern was a sense of thickness or “wateriness” (ie it could make me feel like I was underwater) I got with certain tubes. So I started chasing more neutral, leaner tubes, discovering ultimately that a Valvo 12au7 cleared the problem right up. (I also tried switching back to the 2/64 card in the Bifrost which helped, but in the end I ended up switching back to the OG card as my preferred sound.)

However, and this is a thing that I want to emphasize—sometimes you’re listening and you don’t notice something because you’re listening for something else or your mood is different or whatever. Once I’d solved the thickness problem, I started noticing what I’m going to refer to as ‘prickliness’—a slight harshness or not smoothness in the treble that irritates just a bit, typically with certain kinds of distortion. This was the thing where when I had the JDS Atom stack I couldn’t listen to stuff like the MGMT album Oracular Spectacular because the distorted synthesizers sounded grating to me. The thing is that the smoothness of the Rebel amp seemed to shave all that off (though I did still have treble issues when I got the Geshelli J2 DAC, but that’s another story I’ve written about somewhere). Anyway, the Pendant with the Valvo input tube didn’t have that smoothness and now I started noticing and being bothered by the prickliness.

One thing I didn’t mention in the first post in this thread was there’s another DAC that I have that I use all the time—the Qudelix 5k which I use portably. And the 5k, notably, I’ve never noticed the glare issue that I talked about with the K7. The 5K didn’t sound as good as my desktop solutions, sure, but always sounded perfectly adequate (and having parametric EQ on the go is a killer feature).

So since I never noticed prickliness on the Q5K either, I decided to see what would happen if I piped the Q5k straight into the Pendant (which helpfully has two RCA input pairs, so I didn’t even need to break out my Sys to A/B them). And lo and behold, the Q5k on the Pendant isn’t prickly. It’s more neutral sounding than the BF2, but even though the BF2 is a “warmer”, “richer” DAC, the Q5k has a smoother top end.

Now, to be clear, the BF2 is superior the Q5k in every other way. The Q5k is still perfectly good, but switching back and forth really hammered home how the BF2 brings out dimension and soundstage and imaging and so forth that the poor Q5k can’t really keep up with. It’s just this prickly/watery business where the Q5k’s more neutral, straight-on presentation wins.

I brought out the Modi+ to compare and the Modi+ definitely has more soundstage and dimensionality than the Q5k (which both these other DACs make seem flat as paper). It actually made me appreciate how good a DAC the Modi+ is; it’s not as good as the BF2, but it gets pretty darn close compared to something like the Q5k. BUT the Modi+ preserved the quality of prickliness the BF2 has. And since the Modi+ and the Q5k both use ESS chips, this makes me think this quality is an intentional part of the tuning of these devices by Schiit.

Now I previously experienced something similar on the Bottlehead Crack I bought some months ago, and I solved that with a tube combination of the Shuguang Treasure paired with a Brimar input tube, which sounded marvelous to me. But switching away the Valvo brought back the heaviness problem, and I didn’t want to keep chasing after more and more tubes—I already had some pretty dark and rich tubes (Amperex power tubes and Mullard rectifier tube).

I was about to throw in the towel and say I need to get some other DAC. I even bought a used SMSL SU-8 (which hasn’t arrived yet) in order to try out a different sound since Parker on Discord swears by that DAC and I thought maybe fiddling with the filter settings might give me some clue as to where to head for a DAC.

But then thinking about filter settings made me think of something else I hadn’t tried. The BF2 now has the option to turn off the ‘Supercomboburrito’ filter. So I did. And presto, most of the prickliness disappeared. Not all of it—I could still listen to Jazz and find a horn blast come in and sound harsh. But most of it. And then when I switched the tubes around—replaced the Valvo with the Brimar input tube I used to use on my Crack—and presto. Prickliness basically gone. And for some reason, maybe because there’s less sharpness between highs and lows? (this is 100% a guess) the thickness didn’t seem to bother me that much?

So now I’m all set? Well, the BF2 with in NOS mode is… pretty mellow. Certainly compared to the Q5k it now sounds suuuuper laid back. This isn’t necessarily bad, but maybe not end game yet?

We’ll see how I take to the SU-8. I could, of course, upgrade to something truly next-level, like the Gustard R26, and hope that with whatever filter options it offers is perfect. Or maybe something in the BF2’s price category like the iFi iDSD Neo, which has the warm and smooth Burr Brown chips. But I definitely don’t have the money for a purchase like the Gustard at the moment, (and anyway when I do get more fun money I still want to upgrade my budget speakers and power amp).

But… the fact that filters can have such a huge impact made me think. Maybe the solution isn’t a new DAC, but new filters. In other words, I could keep the BF2 in NOS mode and get something like HQPlayer. The upside and downside simultaneously of something like HQPlayer is that it has a bewildering number of options that would be a whole rabbit whole to figure out what I liked the best, but once I did I might be able to shape the BF2 into the perfect DAC for me. And HQPlayer is sure a lot cheaper than a Gustard R26.

I’ve seen some people say that the sample rate of the BF2 isn’t ideal for HQPlayer. Other people though say it does change the sound, and maybe that’s all I need? I don’t know. The only thing is that I’m nervous about the starting the trial period with HQPlayer because I’ll have a ticking clock to figure out if it works for me and I won’t be able to trial it again once I get a new DAC if I do it now.

So right now I’m still playing with it and thinking about it. Still, I would love to be able to get rid of the things that bother me most at the DAC level, so that I could worry less about everything else down the line—if I get it smooth coming out of the DAC, I don’t need to worry about finding an amp or speakers (or headphones, though I’m pretty much endgamed there) that’s as smooth as the Rebel, I can stick with the Pendant and whatever power amp and it’s one less thing to worry about.

 

Ever since Schiit introduced NOS mode I've used it with HQPlayer and I haven't looked back. I agree that NOS mode mitigates some of the prickliness of Schiit DACs, but without HQPlayer I feel as though I lose some resolution and it sounds a bit fuzzy and rolled off. If I use HQPlayer, then I don't feel like I'm losing anything except the aforementioned prickliness.

I've used this combo with my BF2 and now I use it with my Yggdrasil+ OG. I've moved the BF2 to my wife's setup where it's paired with a BH Crack and it's getting fed from a raspberry Pi via USB. We don't use NOS mode there because the Pi doesn't have HQPlayer and the prickliness is mitigated enough by the Crack to not bother my wife.

 

It's such a relief to hear someone say they had a similar experience with Schiit DACs. Do you mind sharing your HQPlayer settings? Might save me some time...

Also I see you have the Zen One Signature. How does that compare to the BF2 in terms of both quality and prickliness in your opinion?

 

I've been using the `poly-sinc-guass-hires-lp` filter, and I've used the `poly-sinc-guass-xla` filter in the past. I use the `NS9` shaper with both. I did compare a bunch of settings when I first got HQPlayer, but I don't really remember what differentiated them now.

I haven't used the BF2 much in quite a while since I put it in my wife's chain, and I've mostly used the Zen One Signature with the Piety, so it's hard for me to compare. What I can say is that the Zen One Sig has less prickliness than the Schiit DACs, but it also has less resolution. To say more I'd have to set up more direct comparisons and I don't really enjoy evaluating gear that much because it takes away from my time listening and enjoying the music. Apologies!

 

Worth noting on the iFi gear, the "always on MQA" thing is the GTO filter, which you have to specifically flash the GTO firmware to enable. By default they use a fairly standard linear phase filter that works fine.

GTO is essentially a very short minimum phase filter implemented in the XMOS chip's DSP before the DAC. I personally don't like it, especially for Redbook files that I'm usually listening to.

 

Thank you Purr1n! This is super helpful, I'll look into those DACs. I just got the SU-8 and just plugged it in, I'll report back once I feel like I've had enough time to have a proper feel for it.

I actually had the MMB1 at one point! Ultimately I decided it was TOO laid back for me, and first replaced it with the Modi+ (this was before the MMB2 came out), and then I tried the Geshelli J2 which I didn't like which is what got me to ultimately step up a price level and get the Bifrost and sold off the MMB1.

Out of curiosity, what DAC would you recommend if we did put the price range up to $2k? Is the Gustard R26 as good as people say in your opinion?

 

I wasn't aware the higher end Denafrips DACs had a good reputation here either.

 

My experience with entry level-priced gear is that you simply cannot achieve a sub $1k system that's musical if you are buying new. Here is my entry level PC setup that I have been using for a while: EVGA Nu-Audio OG sound card with its dedicated separate power supply unit (I "hot wired" the PSU and it's basically on all the time whether the PC is on or not), Cary Audio Xciter Dac (connected to EVGA via toslink) and Headamp Glite mk2 w/ GRPS. The stack is paired with Clear OG. You can pick up the entire stack (less than cans) for sub $1k if you shop around.

I can say that the set up is smooth, musical with good mid range resolution and macro dynamics, and I can listen to the rig for hours without getting any ear fatigue. The mid range has good amount of resolution, fairly transparent with good timbre. The bass is pretty good with great macro dynamics. I can certainly tell you all the areas that this setup falls behind my reference system, but for a sub $1k system, it's important to focus on a limited set of criteria, which for me is the system being musical, smooth, lacking digital hash and be listened to for a long period of time without ear fatigue.

My reference system is Linn Akurate DS/3 (BNC) - Emm Labs Dac2xV2 - CFA3.

 

So the SU-8 arrived without a remote, and you can't change any of the internal settings without one, so that's annoying. I contacted the seller and they said they made a mistake and are sending it to me.

Initial impressions though:
SU-8 is a DAC that does nothing wrong. All the prickliness, all the harshness I experienced with the Bifrost, even in NOS mode, is gone completely. I can put the brightest, roughest tubes in the Pendant and they sound fine (well, almost—the Sylvania EL84s still sound a bit harsh to me). Indeed, while on the Bifrost I found myself wanting the lusher, softer Amperex EL84 power tubes, with the SU-8 I find myself prefering the more neutral, more dynamic Funkwerks EL84s, along with the Valvo input tube which more-or-less removes the thickness from the amp and brings out detail. And the SU-8 doesn’t have the glare issue I had with the K7.

At the same time, while the SU-8 does nothing wrong, it also does nothing particularly to impress. While it isn’t flat in soundstage like the Qudelix, switching between it and the Bifrost the depth and holography immediately increases. The blacks become much blacker, the music becomes more dynamic and punchy, and it’s overall “better”. The SU-8 by comparison sounds duller, “grayer”, less engaging.

And yet, the SU-8 has been a revelation in that I didn’t even think it was possible for all that roughness to be removed and thought I’d have to chase down the smoothest possible speakers to fix something I thought was particular to me, that I was hearing that other people didn’t. But with the SU-8 I don’t have to do that at all. With the Kanto speakers, for example, where the Bifrost brought out a roughness that I assumed was simply the speakers not being good enough before, but that roughness goes away completely with the SU-8 and they just sound like… normal speakers, I guess? Similar to the SU-8 itself, with the SU-8 the Kantos become speakers that do nothing wrong, but fail to be especially impressive (though the Pendant helps in this regard certainly, making it sound much more 3D than they did on the Rebel). The SU-8 is just more pleasant with the Kantos and I find myself not wanted to switch back to the “better” Bifrost.

Meanwhile, I downloaded HQ Player and spent a bit of time getting it working with Apple Music. (I still can't figure out how to get it to output to AirPlay, so for now I'm using it with USB instead of my Pi streamer.) So far, while HQ Player does seem to sound better than the native BF2 filter, it doesn't sufficiently fix the problem with the handful of settings I've tried (at least not the way that the SU-8 does). I still need to try more settings and maybe switching back to the softer tubes... between tubes and filters now there's a truly bewildering number of possible combinations. Still, if I can't get the Bifrost to sound the way I want it to, I'll probably put it up for sale and put the funds towards getting something better, and live with the SU-8 until I have enough.

 

@Merrick Have you shared your story yet of adventures in downgrading?

 

I don’t know if I would call it downgrading so much as going through a lot of gear over the years and finding stuff I like without going broke. Yes, at one time I had a Gungnir Multibit with a Rag and it sounded great, and now I use an ifi Zen with a Schiit Vali 1 and that sounds great too. A big part of it was choosing to prioritize the music over the gear plus I’ve always tended to be a bang for the buck kind of guy.

 

Instead of messing around with tubes and filters, you may want to seriously consider an option alot of audiophile overlook or dismiss but one that can be vitally important in certain situations...power conditioning. Or try a different conditioner if you have one already. I've found conditioning can seriously impact unpleasant treble issues and BF2 sounds alot less prickly nowdays with my current power situation.

 

This is a good suggestion, thanks! I have a Furman PST-8 currently, and while I think it did make an improvement when I got it, I also think the improvement was very small. I've considered trying something like the Puron line conditioner that people say offers good results.

However, one advantage that filters and tubes (the ones I already have at least) have over that is that I can play with them for free, and I'm trying not to spend any more money at the moment.

I'll note the particular gear you've mentioned in your post and see how expensive it is to get though... honestly I might have found HQPlayer settings that convince me to keep the BF2 after all, but I'll report more on that once I've done some more listening...

 

adventures in downgrading: power conditioning edition

 

Our martyr-in-residence speaks!

We know you're one step from downgrading to a tin-can-on-a-string treehouse rig, but cheap power conditioning to alleviate treble nasties from a downgraded rig is a far cry from expensive FOMO audiophile jizz. Just to set the record straight. Unless you wanna continue adding noise.

 

@internethandle said it best in a post on another thread -- this should be tagged as a quintessential "lessons learned" as far as chasing the dragon.

This is a big chunk of the reason why I had to go through an "adventures in downgrading" in the first place. I'd make a change in the audio chain and suddenly it would sound better in some respects but horrible in other areas. This kind of dominos into a shell game and you're back to guessing and swapping parts, and after a while, you can find yourself really, really far from when you started and hundreds or thousands of dollars later. This can potentially lead to the unconscious shift from the mindset of listening to music, to just listening to gear -- just my experience and opinion of course.

 

I'm listening to the ETA O2 with the Vali 1 and the ifi Zen. It sounds tremendous. Every time I think I need to upgrade, a few minutes listening to this combo dispels the notion for me.

 

Vali 1 is the number one thing I regret selling in this hobby.