Adventures in Treble (?) Sensitivity -- or my Harbeths Conundrum

they probably resell it on Woot or Amazon Warehouse as open box

 

I too think you made the right choice by going with the 30. 300 might be too big for your application. And without knowing which widebander will be your cup of tea, you would be shooting in the dark. In case you come across a dealer who carries Graham, give those a try as well.

 

Yeah, that near 16" depth would be too much for my stands I think. The near 13" depth of the Concept 30s might already make me shift some things around to fit them with the banana plugs sticking out the back (or I'll have to switch to spades, we'll see). Even if I think the lack of the white "face" on the front of the C300s make them a lot better looking than the C30s. Oh well.

 

Sorry to harp on this but I kind of can't get over it. This is the Q Acoustics 5020:


Look at that beautiful thing.

Now look at this penguin mf:


Like from research I think I'd like the 5020 less than the C30, which just looks like the better speaker, but I just can't get over how much better looking the 5020 is. And I recognize that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and everything, but why would you make your more expensive speaker just look worse and cheaper? Gah, just annoys me.

 

Beauty is subjective. I actually prefer the look of the C30, especially in the white. The 5020 just looks cheap to me, and that wood look is a vinyl wrap, which I hate.

 

They've arrived finally:

Back-to-back measurements vs. the modded Harbeth P3ESR SE:



I have no idea why these measurements are so similar except that they're in the same room.

Aegir seems to run them fine though I'll have to pull over the A23+ and the (still unsold) 8300A to compare what more watts gives you.

That big drop in the bass that bottoms out at 80hz, does that mean I should set the sub to 100 hz despite the following peak at 55hz (which I'm pretty sure is a room mode--waiting on some room treatment stuff to help deal with that)?

 

I fixed that first sentence for you.

 

55Hz is a 10ft wavelength; perhaps one room dimension is 10ft?

 

The room is 9'1"x10'1"x8"9', so that's spot-on.

 

Initial impressions:

So far the QC30 sounds much crisper, more muscular, and tighter than the Harbeths but doesn't have the midrange richness and dimensionality that makes the Harbeths so compelling. However, the tube preamp seems to help with that (and seems to make a bigger difference with the QC30 than it did with the Harbeth).

However, more importantly it doesn't seem to bother my ears much. I even tried putting the provided port plugs in and it doesn't seem to bother me the way the Harbeths did (I presume because the QC30's "Gelcore" construction reduces cabinet resonance). And the QC30 slams and rocks WAY more than the Harbeths do, just pumps it even on the lowly Aegir.

 

So after comparing the QC30s on the Aegir to the Parasound A23+ and the Audiolab 8300A, it became clear that these speakers really wanted the extra juice those other two amps provide to provide the kind of detail and dynamics these speakers want. As with the Dentons (though for different reasons) there were songs where the QC30 with the Aegir sounded good, but other songs (like "The Only One” by the Cure) where the Aegir/QC30 combo sounded buried and muddy (though that's not a well-mastered song, but perhaps that's the point--I want everything to sound good, even if it's recorded like shit).

The A23+ sounded great on these speakers, perhaps as expected. The surprise though was the 8300A. These speakers seem to like the extra attack and air the 8300A provides, and with EQ and pivotally on the Pendant tubes to smooth over the ragged edges, didn't bother my ears that much. They still felt like they didn't quite have the control and, I don't know, maturity of the A23+, but the feature set is still really nice. I was, in fact, all set to come in here asking for amp recommendations, and looking at stuff like the Galion TS A75, LSA Voyager One, Van Alstine Vision SET, or even the Yamaha A-S1200.

But the Audiolab 8300A is an amp that supports bi-wiring and the QC30 are speakers that support bi-wiring, so I figured what the hell and busted out a second set of speaker cables. And so my first big surprise was that bi-wiring seemed to add in a lot of the control in the treble in particular that seemed like was missing before. I'd written off bi-wiring in the past as not making any sense, but I was hearing a difference. It was a small difference, but it was exactly what I was looking for in terms of what was missing. (Also this really emphasizes that there really is nothing in the price range with the feature set of the Audioloab 8300A. Name another integrated amp with balanced inputs and bi-wiring capability for under $2k. I'll wait.)

Well, the QC30s supporting bi-wiring and that means they also support bi-amping. And I have a second amp in the Aegir just sitting here on the shelf beneath the Audiolab, so what the hell. I hooked the tweeter up to the Aegir.

Holy shit. This sounds amazing. I'm kind of sitting here in shock honestly. The Aegir tames the treble and enriches it, while the 8300A has plenty of oomph for the woofer. It just sounds absurdly good.

At this point I feel a bit like a mad scientist mixes and matching parts together. This still feels like an insane amount of tweaking, given the EQ, tube preamp, specific tubes in that preamp, two different speaker amps, and the speakers. (Also some room treatment came in and seems to be doing something though how much I'll have to really measure when I get around to it.)

And like could I imagine speakers and amps sounding better than this? Sure I can. But there's always something better. Right now, with this set-up, at least right now (and I still need to give this longer listening than just a couple hours, I might change my mind) there's nothing wrong. There's no problems, it just sounds really good.

I still have an MJ3 on order, which I put in when I was still just using the Aegir and wanted something to take the place of the RebelAmp so that I could have a solid state option when I didn't want to power up the tubes. The Audiolab without the Pendant still sounds too harsh to my ears, even bi-amped. MJ3 might fix that. Or maybe once that arrives I'll think about swapping out the Audiolab with something like the A75. But maybe not. Right now I'm just enjoying listening to this set-up. Bi-amping for the win, who knew?

Thanks everyone who recommended the QC30 speakers, they're great!

 

Different amps have different gains. Aegir’s gain is actually quite low compared to most typical power amps. For instance, the Parasound A23+ has a gain of 29dB vs Aegir is 22dB. This means, given the same preamp driving both amps, the parasound will be louder. Not sure what the internal gain of the Audiolab is, but assuming you’re using the preouts of that amp to drive the Aegir, you might actually be experiencing a volume difference between the woofer and the tweeter now. Did you try measuring it to see what it looks like before/after bi-amping? If the gains are matched you should see no difference. If they are different, then you will see a shelving of the treble above the crossover point, which means you have effectively EQ’d (probably downward) the tweeter, in addition to changing the “flavor” of the amp.

 

Hi, you are correct!

So first what I did was split the signal coming out of the Pendant so lines ran separately to the Aegir and the 8300A. Because the 8300A is an integrated, this let me effectively set the volumes for each driver individually, by changing the Pendant's volume in relation to the 8300A's (turn up the Pendant and down the 8300A, you're effectively turning "up" the Aegir). (This is like the tweeter knob on my L82 which lets you set the volume of the tweeter independently from the woofer.)

Now I had already been putting a high shelf on the treble on my computer EQ, but what I found was if I turned the Aegir "down" (by turning the Audiolab up) I didn't have to do that anymore.

However, I wanted to be able to take advantage of the direct XLR input from the DAC to the 8300A to bypass the Pendant when I didn't want to deal with tubes for whatever reason. So I tried going straight from the preamp output of the 8300A to the Aegir, getting rid of the splitter at the Pendant. This does have the downside, as you say, of making the tweeter less amplified than the woofer, but since that's what I wanted anyway I don't mind. What I lose is the precision of being able to control how MUCH less amplified the tweeter is than the woofer, but I make up for that using the EQ to get the kind of sound I want.

Admittedly, this is a little crazy, and only works because my computer is the source and has a parametric EQ, but it seems to work.

 

I'm dumb--you can bi-wire from a single set of speaker terminals. Having two sets of terminals like on the 8300A is nice-to-have, but not necessary.

 

You may see this referred to as "single shotgun" and "double shotgun," i.e., a single connection to the amp end and a double connection to the speaker end is a single shotgun, and a double connection at the amp end to a double connection at the speaker end is a double shotgun.

From what I can gather, if your speakers use a series crossover, where the signal passes first through the woofer section and then through the tweeter section, there may be improvements to the sound by skipping over the woofer section of the x-over for the tweeter, and not including the tweeter section in the woofer's signal path. This is just my understanding and I could be wrong!

 

Okay, this is absurd.

So I'm sitting here thinking why is it no matter what I do speakers keep irritating my ears and maybe it's the room or I'm just doomed or something, because these speakers didn't irritate me in the store and they do here. And then I read a post on another forum where someone said that they got resonances from having their speakers on their desk and they moved them off and it was better. Now my speakers are on stands attached to my desk. So I thought, well, this is easy to test. I pulled the bass traps from the corners of my room (the only things I have handy) and put them on either side of my desk and put the speakers on them.

Yeah, the irritation is basically gone. All this tsuris and what I really needed to do was take the damn things off my desk.

Anybody got a recommendation for speaker stands that do a good job minimizing resonances and relatively compact and are adjustable and don't cost a fortune?

 

I wonder if isolation pads on top of the stand would help...

 

old college textbooks

 

When it rains it pours.

So I got an offer finally on the Audiolab. So I have to make a decision right now--do I sell the Audiolab finally and get something else or keep it?

Now, as I said the Audiolab has good features and I've gotten it sounding pretty good. Still, in order to make an informed decision, I got the A23+ over again and hooked it up in the woofer-only configuration, with the Aegir still on treble duty.

And yeah, the A23+ is still dramatically smoother and more controlled sounding than the Audiolab. I feel like I can compensate for the Audiolab's shortcomings with the tube preamp and bi-amping and EQ, but at the end of the day the amp is just mid. And it's annoying because it's literally the only thing in my set-up right now that I don't think is just right.

Okay, so what speaker amp should I get to replace it? Under $2k preferably. Power amp is fine, though integrated has certain conveniences, I can deal with a power amp (especially once the MJ3 finally arrives) especially if by going with the power amp I get better price/performance. Nice if it has at least two inputs, whether two single-ended or balanced so that I can run solid state and tubes into it; otherwise I'll have to run the tube preamp into the MJ3, which is a little weird but not the end of the world I suppose.

The only other requirement is it'd be nice if the depth is less than about 13" so it can actually fit on my shelf, which is the kind of thing that never seemed like a problem until I got into power amplifiers. (Even the A23+ sticks out on both sides pretty crazily, I had to rule out the Yamaha A-S1200 because it's just too darn big.)

Here's the current contenders in my mind, but feel free to suggest your own:

* Safe choice: get another A23+. I know it's good. But can't help but feel I might be leaving something on the table.
* Galion TS A75: the new newness. Supposed to be a "giant killer" (at least according to the guy behind it). Only worry is that it's "airiness" might be too bright, but I think I've gotten a handle how to EQ that now, and these speakers seem to like a little brightness. No preamp output/loop output, so I'd need to use a splitter somewhere to bi-amp if I even still want to, but that's not the end of the world.
* Schiit Vidar 2: The affordable choice. Also no preamp/loop output. Might synergize well biamped with the Aegir since both Schiit and can't argue with the price. Probably stacks with the Aegir nicely too.
* LSA Warp One: Class D but good? Could by nice and people on this forum seemed to like it. No preamp/loop output.
* Hegel H95: Everybody likes Hegel, even Purr1n. But would Hegel's cheapest integrated stand up to similarly priced power amps? Maybe a little bright but see my comments on the A75.
* Kinki Choco Emei: Another integrated everyone seems to like (though British Audiophile said it was slightly metallic and nasal, but no one else seems to think so). @rlow I know you liked the Kinki EX-M1 and this looks similar but cheaper. No preamp/loop output.
* Van Alstine Vision SET Control Amplifier: Affordable integrated, and lots of people like Van Alstine's work. Though what's with all these integrated amps with no preamp outputs? There's also a slightly cheaper power amp version.
* Soncoz SGP1: People seem to like this amp, though it's main drawback for me is that it only has a balanced input, which means I would HAVE to run the Pendant through the MJ3 or some other balanced preamp in order to use it.

Could also get some vintage thing, but I'm worried about the "vintage tax" of needing to get it serviced and reliability and I don't really know about the vintage market and what's good. Like I guess I could find a refurbished Quad 606 or something like that?

An alternative also would be to take the A23+ for the QC30s and get something more compact for the living room. Here the SGP1 would actually fit since it'd be hooked up to the SU-8 being fed by the Bluesound Node, so it can be just balanced. But I don't even know if that amp's any good (and also it seems to be sold out for the moment). But any of the power amps above would do as well (I don't want an integrated in the living room because I don't want the little ones wondering over and turning the knobs and turning knobs and pushing buttons all the time, and anyway why have two ways to control volume?).

Any suggestions? You folks lead me well with the QC30, what should I get to run it? If it's more appropriate, I could also post this to the regular advice thread.

Edit: I could also get a second Aegir and run mono which would be even cheaper. I was reluctant to do that because the characteristics of the Aegir seemed not to agree with the QC30, but now that I tried it bi-amped I think maybe it's just the power issue? Though has the same problem of the SGP1 that I'd have to run it balanced so I couldn't go directly from the Pendant to the amps without something in the middle doing conversion.

 

I think I got my T+A Amp8 used for the price you're looking at. Easily matches your size requirements and provides good power into my Totem Tribe II center, biamped.