ASR Member Takes Offense At Real Science; Also Cries

Discussion in 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' started by vodkadebugger, Jan 8, 2024.

  1. mediumroast

    mediumroast Facebook Friend

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    A Moog synth is still going to sound like it does( guitar, drums, Nord Lead etc) Based on skill of the engineer, on the higher end system it going to be better or worse sounding. If they over load with effects on good source material then probably, washed out digital sounding. What I'm saying is, it can be easily better sounding on a better setup.
     
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  2. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    I've referenced them in impressions before but every now and again I'll be on a bit of a riot grrrl or similar binge e.g. Huggy Bear or Bikini Kill. At least on my current rig and comparing that to what I remember hearing on older chains I used to run (i.e. Sennheiser HD428 out of a Creative Zen X-Fi DAP), the aggression on the modern stuff is a bit more jarring.

    Just for the record I am reasonably sure my hearing is less sensitive now than it was when I was a teenager, though I can still sorta hear up to 17~18kHz. At the very least, I'm still able to easily hear and get headaches from this bullfeces: https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_mosquito.php
     
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  3. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    As @purr1n says, the recording is fixed when that bunch of people say yes to the final master. That's where "artist's intentions" end, and where what we get begins.

    We know what we get. We can hear it, we can hear it on a huge range of equipment ranging from dirt-cheap to billionaires-only. What difference will it make to whether we think it fulfils the performer's intention? How could anybody ever know? Do they have a transcript of all the chat, from beginning to final master, of the creation process? Nope. OK, maybe occasionally there might be a relevant interview. Once in a while.

    We may or may not be able to revel in our own taste for listening into the fine details of music, but anyone who is an actual music lover can feel it on a phone speaker. Perhaps that too carries the "artists' intention."

    If we get it, we get it. And gear is only a part of that.

    Oh yeah, of course: we all want to listen to the most beautiful sound possible. And it's totally valid to want to dig into the detail, and that is not merely an intellectual pursuit either. But the gear is secondary to the music.

    Oh... Audio gear, like photography gear, is. of course, a valid hobby in itself.

    Me: I want to buy a new camera
    Counterpoint: Will it make you a better photographer?
    Me: No. But hey, what if my hobby is also collecting camera gear

    (ps: my new camera takes better photos. But actually, it does not make me a better photographer because it is cleverer than I am. Is this relevant... probably not)
     
  4. ColtMrFire

    ColtMrFire Writes better fan fics than you

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    And then there are the times when artists change their mind about what their intention is about their past work and want to force people to forget what they originally responded to and see it another way.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    Not just this, but somehow I have a feeling Amir keeps screwing up the distortion measurements for headphones.

    Let's investigate. Look at the HD800S:
    [​IMG]

    Okay, so with his rig that costs more than my entire setup and the car combined he gets 94dB - 30dB = 64dB THD at 1kHz.

    Here's what 70€ gets you:
    Sennheiser HD800 at 94dB.jpg
    ... but where did the distortion go?

    Let's investigate further:
    HD800 1kHz 94dB FFT.jpg
    On an FFT we see that D2 is at -91.6dB and D3 at -100.5dB at 94dB SPL at 1kHz. This is on a coupler and with a low noise omni mic. THD is at -90.6dB.
    (I set the scale so that 1kHz is at 0dB.)

    Oratory1990 certainly seemed capable of getting better results than Amir:
    https://imgur.com/a/XeZpYhw

    How the hell Amir gets 30dB worse THD than I do on my cheap setup is beyond me. His rig is certainly capable of achieving similar results.
    And let's please ignore the linear scale he uses for the distortion measurements for now.
     

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  6. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    However now for the more interesting bit. I never actually listen with the above amp. The amp I use for listening at my desk is the Schiit Vali instead.

    This is a bit of a blast from the past... Yes, it has audible noise and rings, but it's also a heck of a lot better sounding in pretty much every way. More resolving, larger stage, has nicer timbre, has much better microdynamics and even slams somewhat more, you name it. Granted I use it with the HD600 as part of my desktop rig and use the HD800 with the Ragnarok at my speaker rig instead, but that doesn't really change anything.

    So how does the plot look like with the Vali?
    Sennheiser HD800 at 94dB driven by Schiit Vali.jpg
    OMG Serious, now you're adding 35dB worth of distortion at 1kHz! There's no way that sounds good! After all the lowerer distortion amp must be betterer.

    The truth is I'm not even sure I can hear -55dB distortion at 94dB at 1kHz. 94dB in the midrange is frickin loud and if my ears were blasted with 94dB of midrange energy I think I'd concentrate on other things than distortion that's 55dB down.
    I do think this much distortion is audible in a blind test at a more reasonable volume level, but that's an edge case and normally one would never say that this is audible. That only comes with enough 'tism and ADHD hyperfocus.

    Or is it that I prefer the "warm and rich" sound of the 2nd harmonic? To which I'd reply "Have you ever heard a Vali?"
    And if that was the case I should also prefer the Vali to my Ragnarok, which I don't.

    "But it's all placebo anyway and you couldn't tell the difference in a blind test."
    -I can and I bet you can too with some concentration. I've done such blind tests before. If you can't I'd blame it on the nocebo effect.
    Nowadays I prefer blind testing cables, though :p


    So where am I going with this?
    • If you're going to measure, do it properly
    • However also don't take measurements as gospel and build a whole religion around them.
      Basically what @purr1n likes to say.
     
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  7. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

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    I'm not sure why anyone's surprised about Amir's measurements anymore. His incompetence is pretty well know.
     
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  8. Bina

    Bina MOT - Shanling

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    First time I saw this discussion, went through it slowly over past few days and just wow.
     
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Now we are getting somewhere. The question is what do you want to do? What are your requirements?
    • One person may like the sound of tubes and decide to get tube gear.
    • Another person may like the sound of vinyl and decide to go in that direction.
    • I have a friend (works in sound studio site) who prefers digital and solid state, he hates noise, ticks and pops.
    ---

    So really when we ask what's my assessment of DSPs and class D in cinema systems?

    The Crown DSPs, class D amps, JBL horns, are extremely well suited for the job. The reason? What are the requirements for a modern theater? Excellent sound dispersion / off-axis FR (because not everyone gets a seat in the middle). Excellent positional sense (L LC C RC R) and surround + Atmos (array of speakers above up to 64) + several subs. This means a ton of speakers. High SPL. Explosions in Michael Bay movies. The latter two mean both efficiency and massive power everywhere. This means a stack of class D amps in a rack (in the machine room or projection room). Horns for directivity (even off-axis FR) and efficiency means a lot better EQing with DSP than with analog circuits (trust me). Class D and DSP are really what has enabled the modern cinema experience.

    ---

    Oh forgot to mention. If you want to get as close to possible to the artist's intentions on a screen, especially for streaming shows, get the cheapest LG OLED monitor, preferably on sale, and get it calibrated, and view only in dark room. You will be seeing what almost all colorists use today.

    Don't bother reading RTings bullshit on TV ratings.

    Yup, cheapest LG OLED on super clearance special. Calibrate. View in dark room.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2024
  10. Puma Cat

    Puma Cat Friend

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    Maybe because he has not first conducted a statistically-valid Measurement System Analysis (MSA)? Before one can take statistically-valid measurements, you have to conduct a valid MSA, first.

    You know, to know with statistical rigor that your measurement system is FIT for Purpose, and has:
    1) Accuracy
    2) Precision
    3) Repeatibiility
    4) Reproducibility

    Before one can start obtaining measurements for any system, you have to statistically qualify the meaurement system ITSELF to know with statistical rigor it has sufficent STATISTICAL POWER for the four attributes I've listed above: Accuracy, Precision, Repeatibiility and Reproducibility. (Hint: accuracy and precision are not the same thing and neither are Repeatibiility and Reproducibility)

    For example, with respect to the Precision measurement, It stands to reason that a measurement that is only measuring to 1 significant figure does not require the same level of measurement system precision for a measurement that is made to four significant figures. Ya guys follow me? Therefore, the only way to know if your measurement system is FIT for PURPOSE is to perform an MSA, first.

    Moreover, what's the "Percent Contribution" of ASR's measurement system ITSELF? In other words, how much do the Sums of Squares of ASR's measurement system itself contribute to the sums of squares of the TOTAL SYSTEM VARIANCE? In MSA, this is known as the "Percent Contribution"

    If one can't answer that basic question, then one doesn't know with STATISTICAL RIGOR if the measurement system itself is FIT FOR PURPOSE. :confused:

    https://quality-one.com/msa/

    This isn't rocket science we're doin' here. Just good, basic science.

    Oh, wait, ASR doesn't ACTUALLY know what that is...
     
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    Last edited: Jan 12, 2024
  11. rfernand

    rfernand Almost "Made"

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    Shit, OP is right.

    f**k everything, I’m listening with my eyes now.
     
  12. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Recreational drugs are fine just so long as you don't develop a dependency thereon to function, and it causes no immediate and/or lasting harm to yourself or others.

    Whether or not use of recreational drugs may have informed certain other individuals doing hackneyed measurement jobs is beyond the scope of this jibe.
     
  13. Martigane

    Martigane Acquaintance

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    One phenomenon not to overlook here is that we are effectively measuring the end distortion of the entire chain DAC->AMP->HP->Microphone, and in certain circumstances, harmonic products may be out of phase between the different elements in the chain, resulting in a deep cancellation when they are at comparable levels. This is what the 130Hz 2nd dip looks like, on your graph.
    Now, this is level and frequency dependent so we'd need Frequency x Amplitude maps of each elements to really have a clearer picture... Not easy :)
    My understanding is that this is one of the reason why system synergy is so important.
    Bottom line, I corroborate what you said: measurements should not be taken as gospel.
     
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  14. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    • Gain of the system. Doesn't Amir measure at 135db SPL? Microphone systems (mic, preamp, gain settings) will have limited dynamic range. If the system is optimized for bloody high SPL measurements, it will be noisy for lower SPL. (This is why the APx555 has relays to optimize measurements for sets of voltage levels from small to very high).
    • Differences in SPL calibration. They can be all over the place depending upon how things are measured. dbSPL to 20kHz bandwidth using noise or at 1kHz, microphone placement and position (in canal or flush at concha), A-weight or C-weight, etc.
    • The microphones in the GRAS of whatever may have worse distortion characteristics compared to the Panasonic capsules used in the cheap Amazon or Dayton Audio specials.
    Just possibilities and speculation as I am not sure as I can't be bothered to look at ASR graphs (in fact, I didn't even look at the ASR graph that you posted). I just don't have enough time in the world to look at junk science or nonsense. I don't listen at 115db SPL and I don't run any of my amps anywhere near 2Vrms. Double blind tests have demonstrated that I can discern differences between two different pieces of > 100db "SINAD" gear. So why would I bother? I'd rather spend time working at my jobs and making money, and squeeze in stuff for SBAF when I get the chance.
     
  15. Justin S

    Justin S Friend

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    This for sure. If you want to get even closer to the same thing the director and colourist are seeing there are some viewing room tweaks you can make. Colourists working with monitors will usually/often have bias lighting - it's a high CRI 6500K light behind the screen on a neutral 18% grey wall that is no more than 10% as bright as the screen. Our eyes read colour better this way.

    It's never perfect, though. There is also metamerism - the display reads as in spec with calibration tools but eye see white differently with different monitor illumination technologies, scale - things read and feel differently depending their size, and contrast ratio - OLED at >1000000:1 is very different than cinema which is at best 4000:1, and the accompanying sound which also changes the impression of the image (and we're back to that :)

    I think all of this is to say that "wire with gain" doesn't exist in any domain... Even if you could get closer to that ideal, it would not necessarily get someone closer to the artist's intent - that's a reading question, which I think ASR excludes from any of their arguments. That would involve actually listening to the music.
     
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    cantresist.jpg

    I personally overrode that decision and reversed your ban.

    However, why do you care so much if you stated the below:

    Secondly, if you don't consider anyone an authority on audio here (and no one claims to be such - I've said over and over, I'm just a random dude who bleeds when cut, I have zero credentials, I've never been VP of large company overseeing thousands of people, and failing with so many cool things like Zune, HDCD, HD-DVD, etc.), then why do you bother?

    For example, I don't consider anyone an authority on audio at Audio Science Review, therefore I ignore it. (I have DNS blocks on ASR and HF - because they are time sinks into the abyss). The only things I hear are secondhand from people who report things here,

    P.S. @YMO says you need to get some sex.
     
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  17. joeexp

    joeexp Don't ship this man FD-X1 ever

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  18. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

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  19. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    Haha wow 6 pages and on the homepage. I guess every 6 months or so SBAF needs to vent about ASR. I don't know if it's a good thing or just creates drama that gives them attention as well, maybe positive attention that they wouldnt' otherwise get. it feels good though! :)
     
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  20. Puma Cat

    Puma Cat Friend

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    I'll add that our eyes/vision system are not...spectrophotometers. The reason we see "blue" or "green" is not because our eyes/vision system are discriminating between 445-520 and 520-564 nM, respectiively.

    We see color based on Edwin Land's Retinex Theory of Color Perception.
    Scroll down to Retinex Theory
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_constancy

    You can download and read Land's paper here:
    https://www.cnbc.cmu.edu/~tai/cp_papers/E.Land_Retinex_Theory_ScientifcAmerican.pdf

    And, once again, like with the perception of "music", the "color" we see is a construct of our brains.
     
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