Audeze LCD-4

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by joeexp, Sep 28, 2015.

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  1. Steve Eddy

    Steve Eddy Acquaintance

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    I don't care how they sound. A $6,000 price tag on a pair of headphones shows nothing but contempt for those who are expected to be buying them. And asking $6,000 for something as ugly as the Abyss should be criminal. For $6,000 I expect them to be designed by Jony f'ing Ive, not your dimwitted goth son.

    Let me tell you a little something about the man behind that $6,000 price tag and maybe you'll see that $6,000 a bit differently.

    Some years ago, JPS Labs was selling a line of power cords. One "optimized" for use on analog gear and one "optimized" for use on digital gear. JPS Labs claimed that the "magic" behind these power cords was their own technology. They sold for something like $300 each or thereabouts.

    A friend of mine owned one. I can't remember offhand if it was the "analog" or the "digital" version, but no matter.

    One day out of sheer boredom and idle curiosity, my friend decided to cut off the heatshrink and Tecflex to see what was underneath. What did he find? A stock Eupen power cord that normally sold for like $10 or something. That's it. No magic pixie dust or anything. Just a stock Eupen power cord hidden by some heatshrink and Techflex.

    When this scam was exposed over on The Audio Asylum forum, Joe tried to "defend" himself by saying that yes, the power cord was made by Eupen, but these Eupen power cords were made custom just for JPS Labs.

    The Eupen power cord was a decent power cord. It used a conductive polymer jacketing beneath the PVC outer jacket, and they had a little RLC line filter molded into one of the plug ends. It was these filters that Joe claimed were optimized for analog and digital explaining why he sold two versions of the cable.

    I contacted Eupen at their headquarters in Belguim and ended up speaking to one of their lead engineers in charge of design and production. He assured be that Eupen was not making any custom versions of these cables for JPS Labs or anyone else. He further assured me that these power cords were made using just the one line filter and even gave me the values of the components used for the filter. He got a big laugh when I told him that someone over here in the States was taking their power cord, hiding it under some heatshrink and Techflex and slapping a $300 price tag on it.

    I reported this on The Audio Asylum and poor Joe was simply unable to defend himself any further.

    This eventually came out over on HeadFi, when someone ask about Joe being involved in some scandal about a power cord some years ago. I replied confirming the truth of the story. Joe replied attacking me, calling me a liar, etc.

    He made one last attemp at defending his criminal fraud by pointing to an old post of mine over on The Audio Asylum. It was a post where I was explaining the nomenclature printed on the cable such as model number, agency approvals, etc. There was just one thing I wasn't able to identify, and it was a simple numeral 1. Joe pointed to that numeral 1 and said that was the marking that proved that the power cords were being custom made for JPS Labs.

    But Joe wasn't aware of one vitally important bit of information. That very same numeral 1 was printed on the STOCK Eupen power cords that my friend had bought from Eupen's US distributor once he had uncovered Joe's scam.

    Of course Jude came swooping down and deleted all of those posts within a couple of days so there would be no record of it on HeadFi.

    So there you have it. The truth behind the crook who is responsible for those $6,000 headphones.
     
  2. Steve Eddy

    Steve Eddy Acquaintance

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    I think the EL-8s were all about trying to make a more mainstream product so they could get into the Apple Store where they would be sold alongside the Beats.

    se
     
  3. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    So you're saying you never heard it?
     
  4. Koth Ganesh

    Koth Ganesh Friend

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    Exactly this. I bought the LCD 2.2 and warts and all (mainly soundstage and resolution), still like the sound. Then I bought the LCD 3 and was like...A $1,000 more for a little more clarity in the midrange? But no, I bought the LCD-XC. No more from that company until our trusted pyrate wizards actually bless one.
     
  5. Steve Eddy

    Steve Eddy Acquaintance

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    Nope. No need. I don't care how they sound. A $6,000 price tag on a headphone like that is to have nothing but contempt for the people expected to buy them. And given Joe's past criminal fraud with regard to those power cords, he's already amply demonstrated that he holds his victims, er, I mean "customers" in full contempt. Of course you're perfectly free to not care about anything like that, so by all means, hand your $6,000 over to a crook if you'd like.

    se
     
  6. Rotijon

    Rotijon Friend

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    I dont think that the SR009 deserve that diss.

    The R&D for that headphone almost made the company broke. Stax is not that kind of company. When they release things, they get them right.
     
  7. shipsupt

    shipsupt Admin

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    I'm a bit biased since I own the 009... but I agree. I'm not sure at what point the pricing gets completely obscene, but for me it's somewhere in between these two.

    Not to mention, we all know that dealers are giving big discounts on the Abyss... so it's the old school audio-fool markup scheme. I hate that.

    Is it me, or...
    [​IMG]

    I need to hear the LCD-4 before I crap all over it.
     
  8. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    Is this dragging up the price of all other headphones? While there are certainly more headphones above $1000 I don't think this is reducing the sound quality of cheaper headphones nor causing price increases.

    I agree that this is an insane price for headphones but this doesn't make the HD650 obsolete.
     
  9. No_One411

    No_One411 Fired by Jude

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  10. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    IMO anyone is free to pay whatever for a headphone as long as people are up front about what you get. Some folks may like the exclusivity feel perhaps.

    One also needs to consider if something is mass produced or if we are looking at unique semi-art pieces, regardless of sound.

    All those things set aside I don't usually look up from $300 considering only acoustic and ergonomics performance.

    We could make arguments about R&D, construction, brand-name, materials, design, this, that... End of the day $1000 this days is a lot of cash. $3K and $6K is a lot more cash. Are headphones in that range for me? Probably not. At least not now.

    But like Stone Calf in Dance With Wolves said "No man on the council can tell another man what to do"
     
  11. velvetx

    velvetx Gear Master West/Vendor Spotlight Moderator

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  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    There is a lite version for $4500. I rather like the sound of the Abyss. I don't think we need to call his son names or get too personal about these kinds of things. If you have evidence of a manufacturer misleading their customers, feel free to post about it in another thread. On SuperBAF, I'd prefer that we not denigrate people, but crap on gear instead. And let readers decide for themselves whether the people behind the products are trustworthy or not.

    I can excuse the price of SR-009. Boutique stuff made in Japan is simply expensive and the continual strength of the US Dollar has a lot to do with it. STAX doesn't sell a lot of SR-009; and culturally, they don't lay people off in bad times or expand/contract staff like Americans (USA) do. The fact that STAX had to suck Chinese dong to save their company tells us that STAX management was probably not driving Porsche Panameras through the streets of Tokyo.

    As for cables, that's just the industry. 99% of audiophile cables, including the big audiophile brands, are made in one of four factories in China. I've given up the fight against cable manufacturers and instead prefer to show hobbyists where to get good quality cables and how to solder connectors. I feel this is the best approach to vent: show people how to do it themselves for 10000x less cost.

    Back on topic (sort of):

    The Price of the Audeze LCD4 and the Games of Oneupsmanship in Pricing between HiFiMan, Audeze, and the Industry.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2015
  13. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    First, as a consumer, I think these are ridiculously overpriced. I don't think $4000 headphones are a good value proposition. I also would not generally recommend others purchase headphones in this price range. I am a strong advocate for voting with your wallet.

    That being said, the industry is fundamentally broken. I think the piece that you'll never get from other sites is that the pricing is the way it is because the dealer/distributor model is archaic and it really irks me that no one calls it out. Most manufacturers give up 60-70 points on every sale. That means they've created a $4000 headphone or DAC they expect to get $1200-1400 for. With an internet direct model, I suspect these products would be priced around $1500.

    It's cool to be the peanut gallery, but these manufacturers have to plan out these product launches with a full understanding of the product lifecycle. I suspect there are experience players who have a mature supply chain like iriver with the A&K line who are obviously adding ridiculous amounts of markup because they know they can, but I think it gets hazier for others. For smaller players, it's not so simple. Do you know how much it costs to get awesome custom chassis work for your product, or custom headbands, or whatever when you're ordering in small quantities and have a very very specific design? Hint: it's expensive as heck.

    Some of you who are calling others crooks, do you know the operating expenses or OCOGS of the products being sold? R&D, planning for repair and return rates over time, managing for price drops over the lifetime of the product, managing what's going into and out of the channel, planning to avoid impairment on the books if your products devalue over time, managing requirements like EU regulations that you have to be able to service a product 7 years post sale, planning for lawsuits because SOMEONE will sue you no matter how above board you are, etc add up.

    International logistics and navigating import and export complications are incredibly challenging. I suspect we're going to see more manufacturers turn to 3PLs who have already learned to navigate this in the mobile and other electronics space to handle international distribution.

    I'd love to see a few manufacturers band together to negotiate rates with a reasonable 3PL to get a decent distribution price for everyone. The flip side to this is that they also have to figure out an in-region repair partner. Someone who can inspect, test, repair and refurbish product and reclaim anything re-entering the channel as saleable stock when possible.
     
  14. Steve Eddy

    Steve Eddy Acquaintance

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    Fair enough.

    Ok. I only brought it up in this thread because it was touching on the pricing if headphones.

    Yes, it was very sad to see that happen.

    Actually there are still a fair number of them still being made in the US, for example by New England Wire and a few others. But yes, it's quite ironic to see the rush to China to make what are ultimately luxury products. It's just further witness of the greedy vampires sucking the middle class dry.

    Yes, that's a great option for those with the tools and the skills. And of course the desire.

    se
     
  15. KurtSvensson

    KurtSvensson Friend

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    Don't be "that guy". The power is in the hands of the consumer, it's the consumers pushing for cheaper products by simply not caring where it's made as long as it is cheap, which result in production in China. It's like the with the K7XX massdrop, people bought a crapton of them, why? Because they were cheaper, simultaneously lots of people were complaining the headphones weren't produced in Austria... on the bloody head-fi listening impressions page, they had bloody bought them anyway because they were cheap!

    Be a responsible consumer instead and vote with your bloody wallet and tell others to do the same. Don't blame manufacturers for giving the consumers what they are asking for. It's the consumers themselves that pushed for this development... end of rant.
     
  16. Steve Eddy

    Steve Eddy Acquaintance

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    This is the first commercial product that I designed and produced about 25 years ago. I think I know just a little something about this. Perhaps you'd care to tell us about any products you may have designed and produced. I'm curious just how much you know about what you're telling others they don't know. I'm currently working on a high performance tabletop console stereo, which will list for about half of what the Abyss sells for. Perhaps I should hire you as a consultant to help me figure all this stuff out.

    [​IMG]

    As for crooks, just what term would you use to describe someone who took a $10 stock power cord, disguised it under some heatshrink and Tecflex, put their name on it, passed the underlying technology off as their own, and then slapped a $300 price tag on it? What, would you present them with the Marketing Genius of the Year award and hand them a trophy?

    se
     
  17. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    LOL! I would say that's some expensive Tecflex proly made by Armani or Gucci.

    Damit! I blame it all on Ford and his Model-T. And Jude.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2015
  18. KurtSvensson

    KurtSvensson Friend

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    Blame it on Jude? I'm in! (Damn it where are my pyrate emotes?!)

    No but seriously while he has a part in it, people need to remember that the headphone market is pretty damn small and the decisions we take matters a lot more in this market than in most.

    Don't like the new super expensive LCD 4? Don't buy them.
    Don't like support Chinese manufactured cables? Don't buy them.
    Don't like not getting a transferable warranty when you buy from hifiman? Don't buy from them.

    Honestly it baffles me. :S Maybe I'm just a product of the great gaming lord Totalbiscuit. Him and his damn vote with your wallet flawless logic. How dare he be right and teach people to be responsible?
     
  19. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Well, I do subscribe to the "Don't buy them" philosophy. But it's sort of a personal decision.
     
  20. No_One411

    No_One411 Fired by Jude

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    Uh...just email Head-Direct customer service and they'll most likely replace it for a flat fee if it's out of warranty...
     
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