Hands's Non-Oversampling DAC Comparison Master List

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Hands, Mar 3, 2017.

  1. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    How exactly does a DAC feed another DAC? There are no analog inputs on the Mojo, correct? It can’t be used as an amp only that I’m aware of.
     
  2. Tekker

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    These are the inputs for Mojo

    [​IMG]
     
  3. scblock

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    Which shows 3 digital inputs, power input, and two analog outputs...
     
  4. Alcophone

    Alcophone Acquaintance

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    Edit: redundant, feel free to delete.

    No. The Mojo doesn't have analog inputs.

    Inputs:
    • 1x Micro USB 768kHz/32-bit Capable Input
    • 1x 3.5mm Jack Coaxial 768kHz/32-bit Capable Input
    • 1x Optical TOSLINK 96kHz/24-bit Capable Input
    • 1x 1amp Micro USB Charging Port Input
    https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/mojo
     
  5. Tekker

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    Do some NOS DACs work with coaxial? I’m sorry for the nooby questions, but I’ve never looked into separate dac and amp units, I’ve only had all in one dac/amps.
     
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  6. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    Yes, the Mojo has no analog inputs, so it can't even take another DAC of anykind.

    If you are curious on the NOS sound, for $100 there are some TDA153 DIY boards on eBay that I believe are NOS. For a bit more, there are some more put together turnkey boxes with either TDA151, TDA1543's or AD1865.

    You have to feed the digital source from somewhere to DAC. Coax, TOSlink, or AES/EBU (mostly called AES), USB, I2S, ST Optical. Most popular is Coax.
     
  7. Baten

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    How about you do the absolute minimum of research of the very device you actually own before further polluting this thread with questions that should be asked in a general advice thread. Yes?

    Your Mojo only has digital inputs. A DAC literally stands for digital to analogue. You can't connect a NOS DAC to a non-analogue device.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 6, 2021
  8. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    I'm only a few years late here, but I picked up one of these off of ebay about a month ago. Finally showed up today. Yes, it's not NOS, but I'm TDA1541-cuious. Looks like there is a small amount of chatter on some forums, and even some measurements on an earlier revision of this board. I'll probably futz around with opamps (those JRC5534s can't be doing it any favors) and caps in the signal path to keep me occupied. Anyhow, I'll need to dig out some cables from my cable drawer and find a suitable spot for it to live for a while. I powered it on and tested it cold against Yggdrasil A2, and there's no glaring commissions of sin, only the omission of the topmost octave of space and sparkle. But again, the chassis was literally frigid. It is perfectly well built, too. Price has gone up a bit, but I picked mine up for $325 plus shipping.

    [​IMG]

    I'll spend some time in December comparing between the Josaudio dac and Yggdrasil A2/Bifrost 2 in different headphone setups, but mostly my speaker setup.
     
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  9. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    So now that I've had about 24 hours running this in using HD radio (Sangean has both digital coaxial and Toslink outs!) I'll give some initial thoughts compared to Yggdrasil A2 in my speaker setup. First off, about a hundred years ago I messed about with stuff like the old Lite DAC-AH TDA1543 dac, and some other 12v wall wart powered thing in a plastic case with a name that escapes me now. It looked like a computer mouse/3.5" outboard peripheral floppy disk drive, only like 3" square. Anyhow, that was the last time I'd ventured into the "hallowed halls" of stuff that should sound gooderer cause, well Philips chips and stuff. Both those pieces of kit were wet socks - closed in muffled, tonally one-note with rolled off bass.

    So, that being my experience so far with these lovable TDA series chips, I decided now that (at least I think) I have a system that'll resolve any minute differences upstream, I'd see what this "modern TDA" side of the kiddy pool has to offer.

    Hot take: kinda hard to do quick level-matched comparisons between YggyA2 and this Josaudio, since I'm comparing XLR and SE, and running digital coaxial from Pi2AES to Josaudio and AES to YggyA2. But anyhow, first impressions are that the Josaudio is pretty live-able. It's not doing anything horribad, like my previous experiences with this chipset/implementation. It's a bit rolled off in the extremes, both high and low. But it's got an eerily similar tangibility in the midrange. It's got midband presence and good nuance/microdetail, but not in the "presence region" understanding of the term. Tone is pretty spot on, and fluid, if a teeny bit sluggish sounding on more congested/complicated material. It's surely smoothing over some things, but in a pleasant way - you don't feel like you're missing musical technical information that's been printed out and handed to you in a spreadsheet.

    But I'm comparing to YggyA2, which has a bit of excitement rolled into its sound. Anyhow, I'll be happy to throw this out there on a loaner after I've had a chance to compare w/BF2 if anyone is interested. My guess is the Josaudio is going to sound a little tame or relaxed compared to BF2, so it could be a good counter point for folks trying to system-match. For the price, I'd say it's worth considering if you're one of those people that have ventured to the TOTL, and decided it ain't exactly worth it. And you're willing to take the Chi-Fi off brand gamble. More impressions to come.

    Edit: Scott Nixon DacKIT!! That's what it was... f**k, I'm getting old.
     
  10. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    I was going to ask about a tour. I looked on the side for the board builder and could not find a put together unit.

    You really should experiment with op amp swaps. They look like they built the board with swap sockets. Plenty of better ones to choose from other than JRC 5534's.

    PS - props for HD Radio. The Sony XDR-F1HD is supposed to be quite incredible for HD and normal FM, but it has no digital output.
     
  11. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    Yeah, mulling over/researching opamps, but yes everything on the board that's a tweaker's delight is either socketed or the board has provisions for multiple lead/package dimensions. It's a pretty nice board, though I've read some critiques that the layout isn't the tidiest/smartest. But I'm no EE, so I can't comment there. I'll reach out to rhythmdevils once I've had my fill of fiddling with this thing and we'll see about getting a loaner going.

    Oh, I've got a Sony XDR-F1HD in my office setup that's been sitting unused since March 2020... it is definitely a great sounding tuner. For a bit I had a Sansui TU-919, and the Sony kinda blew it's doors off for quietness and more even tonality. The Sangean is no slouch compared to the Sony, either. A little flat sounding, but being able to run it through Yggdrasil, or in my current case, the Josaudio, perks things up. And seeing how the Josaudio brings some better palpability to the midrange, the fact that radio is bandwidth limited, I'm not missing any of the slightly rolled treble the DAC imparts.
     
  12. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    I think the layout issues are probably the use of the SAA7220 input chip as there are other better ones that can feed thr TDA1541. And also the film caps to the right and left of the DAC chip - that is an odd layout. Usually you see those pretty evenly stacked on either side. It also looks AC coupled, which is not surprising given the cost.

    Hard to beat the OPA1656 even if having to use a SOIC to DIP adapter. AD827 might also be cook to try. And yes, there is some room for cap upgrades here and there it looks like.
     
  13. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    Just received the Josaudio TDA1541A DAC from @yotacowboy.

    Initial impressions are about the same. Although I would say the top end is a bit lifted and sound more unnatrual than the rest of the band below 4K. A bit glary above 4k. The mids are fairly smooth, but the top end kind of loses dynamics. This might have been why it sounds congested with complicated material. However, the mids and lows are very TDA'ish and smooth and liquidy as expected.

    It just sound brighter and has a bit more presence than other 1541 implementations. Details are fair, just a bit more 2D than my Theta and not as natural sounding. The Theta is less harsh on the top end and a bit more low end boom (that's Theta for you). And the Josaudio is a touch hotter output.

    I will let this warm up, but it is just begging for op amp swapping.
     
  14. dericchan1

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    With the recent firmware update and the launch of the performance edition, the ifi neo idsd dac should be added to the list of NOS dac, with now the option to go bitperfect NOS for pcm, and it uses a discreet channel for dsd that supports native dsd512

    https://ifi-audio.com/products/neo-idsd/
     
  15. lehmanhill

    lehmanhill Almost "Made"

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    +1 on the OPA1656. It seems to work well and is dirt cheap. The AD827 is nice, but the OPA828 is, IMHO, better, smoother than the OPA827 and even a little less expensive. Of course, horses for courses, so it depends on the project. One warning. the 828 is rather fast, so a clean power supply and attention to oscillation is required.
     
  16. Baten

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    Shouldn't be in this list because it's hybrid delta-sigma and multibit, only the top bits are processed without the usual digital fuckery. I mean you can find other full D-S DACs with NOS mode but I don't think it's what this thread is about, they won't invoke the kind of intimate or vintage sound that is associated with NOS DACs.
     
  17. dericchan1

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    Perhaps I misinterpreted the purpose of this thread. This is more strictly on R2R dacs.
     
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Delta-sigma, even hybrid delta-sigma (which is the case today since true 1-bit stuff like MASH doesn't exist today) technically can never be NOS.

    Well, they can be NOS, but a 1-bit or 4-bit DAC in 44.1kHz NOS won't be very good sounding, actually will be producing more noise than signal. I'm pretty sure that iFi never advertised their BitPerfect as being NOS.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2022
  19. dericchan1

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    i always thought for the burr brown chip used by ifi, it handles bitperfect native dsd NOS.
    I made inquiries with ifi in another forum about the the new bitperfect option in pcm and here is their response :

    https://www.amazon.ca/photos/share/kim02sR7DQLsmxrrsUKhc5u7ZZYRxEHrVMYdkiM0WnY
     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Yup. As I mentioned, it's not NOS. iFi was never claimed nor will they every claim this is NOS.

    --

    First of all, DSD / 1-bit / delta-sigma is inherently an oversampling method. There is no such thing as NOS DSD. DSD is 1-bit and in order for it to work with audio, that 1-bit needs to be oversampled 64 times (or more with DSD128, DSD256, DSD512, DSD1024, etc.). There are actually huge advantages to oversampling DSD nutsos like this can be discussed another time. Regular DSD runs at 2.8MHz. That's millions of cycles per second. The reason is we've traded off bits (16 down to 1), so we need to increase rate to make up for it.

    Second of all, iFi is not being deceptive. They aren't dummies and this is why they cannot say NOS. They mention Bitperfect, which is their proprietary way of mimicking an old school sound (which I do like very much) with modern DAC chips. They mention that the signal is not oversampled prior to being fed into the DAC. All this is true. However, they do not mention NOS.

    The PCM1792/4 parts that they use do have internal x8 oversampling. I suspect that to keep true to their Bitperfect, the internal x8 oversampling is disabled. According to the datasheet, there is a way to rely an external digital filter. The external filter function is probably legacy stuff because this is how filters were implemented back in the day with TI parts such as the DF1704, DF1704, PDM200. I'm betting this option was chosen, but instead of using an external filter, iFi decided to feed the chip straight PCM without any oversampling.

    The reason this implementation cannot be NOS is because inside the PCM1792/1794 guts, it's still got a delta-sigma engine or more precisely, what appears to be a hybrid segment/delta-sigma design. The dead giveaway is the "Advanced Segment DAC Modulator". Anytime we hear the word modulator, it means delta-sigma.

    upload_2022-1-11_10-0-11.png

    Finally, even the datasheet is clear on the oversampling required for the modulator. In fact, one even needs to choose the oversampling rate of the delta-sigma modulator from x128 to x768 with the resultant rate from 5.6 to 33.9MHz for 44.1kHz PCM. Yeah, just like DSD, megahertz. Delta-sigma = 1-bit = DSD. Oversampling to MHz is needed here.

    upload_2022-1-11_10-3-39.png

    --

    Now not to take anything away from iFi, I love their Bitperfect mode. It's an excellent implementation that gets close to that old-school sound using delta-sigma architectures. But NOS this is not, and iFi is well aware of this, hence why they gave their approach its own name: BitPerfect.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022

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