@Makmeksam's good measuring vs. good sounding thread

Discussion in 'Audio Science' started by makmeksam, Dec 5, 2019.

  1. makmeksam

    makmeksam Rando

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    @atomicbob also said he wont use heresy for relaxed listening. What is the reason behind chip amps being bad sounding? And what type of a bad sound is this?
     
  2. Mithrandir41

    Mithrandir41 Friend

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    It's all in the framing of the word. Fast, sterile, lacking in body. It's the difference between technical proficiency and long-term enjoyment. As @purr1n points out, 0.000XX measurements don't mean shit when it comes to listenability. "Bad" might just be boring. I can't think of anything more boring than all the audio companies making clone amps of each other.
     
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  3. makmeksam

    makmeksam Rando

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    So, what does the technical proficiency of these chip amps mean? Doesn't it at least mean that these amps can precisely amplify the exact input signal?

    Edit: "reproduce the exact sound wave encoded in the audio files" -> "amplify the exact input signal"
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
  4. Mithrandir41

    Mithrandir41 Friend

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    Yes, it at least means that. But we're not here to talk about ASR Theory. Beyond a certain audible threshold of noise and distortion, sound is what matters, not masturbatory measurements. A great measuring amp can sound boring, while a less great measuring amp can be preferable to the ear.
     
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  5. makmeksam

    makmeksam Rando

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    Okay. But this is the problem, most of the people don't have a budget to try variety of gear to understand these things on their own. Audio shows and meetups are also not a good alternative since they don't allow enough time and freedom to acclimate to a new product and identity real differences. so, reading online is the only feasible solution. But now we have these two camps who don't like each other and not ready to listen and properly respond to each other. Ultimately, we can not figure out what is real. We just see that there are two sides. A frustrating experience.
     
  6. Mithrandir41

    Mithrandir41 Friend

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    No. SBAF is a balancing act of measurements and subjective impressions. On sites like ASR, you get a very monochromatic view of gear through sinad ratings. We Friends care more about actual sound then vanishingly low distortion where everything ought to sound alike.
     
  7. Aelms

    Aelms Acquaintance

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    It’s often true that finding reliable info is hard, but that’s no reason to discredit what you don’t trust at first sight when there hasn’t been enough effort to try and understand.

    I think it’s also fair to say that where SBAF has rather detailed posts that try to look very closely at ASR’s review methodology and language used, there seems to be little effort in the reverse.

    There’s a whole bunch of threads on terminology, methods and reference points used here. There are things like the Golden Schlong to show what users here care about. It’s really up to people coming on for the first time to figure out what they need to know or find the right ways to ask for help.
     
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  8. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    To me there's more than that. First the load used to test this is usually a resistor. What does it do to the transducer? Is the sound it produces really what the artist/producer heard? What if their equipment has more distortion? Then what you are listening to is ironically less accurate.

    Remember that the information in those bits and grooves is not a perfect representation of the sound, but what equipment was best able to capture. This is why listening is important.
     
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  9. RedFuneral

    RedFuneral Almost "Made"

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    Right, we use non-perfect transducers with non-perfect source material. Assuming for a second that your average measurement suite encompasses all things relevant to hearing would it be ideal to have perfect components and drop yourself down to one imperfect under your control? My experience with the Atom says no, it just made me hyper aware of all my headphone's faults. Every pair has them. Listening is more fun when those are covered up of at least not shoved in your face.
     
  10. Wildstar

    Wildstar Rando

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    No.
    First, these are analogue amplifiers, they have nothing to do with "audio files".
    Second, these simple measurements do not gauge the ability to "precisely reproduce the exact sound wave", they measure the ability to reproduce test tones. If your sound wave is a test tone, indeed they have great "technical proficiency". But music is not a test tone.
     
  11. mkozlows

    mkozlows Friend

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    The implication of "amps with indistinguishably competent measurements sound different" is that the measurements in use today don't actually capture everything meaningful about sound. If you're an ASR-style "Science(TM)" person, you sneer at this as audiophile magic, throw in some references to some genuine no-question-about-it audiophile bullshit like power cords, and insist that everyone who's successfully passing a level-matched blind test -- Torq and Atomicbob on the Magnis -- screwed up their test somehow, and that the measurements are all you need lalalala can't hear you.

    If you were an actual science person, you'd take the facts on the ground (I mean, well, you'd also try to make sure that there weren't any possible screwups in those tests, because methodological rigor and all, but you wouldn't start from the assumption that there were) and try to find the measurements that explain them, because of how there really isn't any magic. Not gonna lie, it's frustrating to me that there's been so little success with this, but also it's not like there's millions of dollars in NSF grants going to study it, either.

    If you're just a consumer without strong ideological commitments, though, you can kind of take a Pascal's wager here. According to "only measurements matter" people, the Magni 3+ and Heresy are audibly perfect, and there's no reason at all to have any preference. So if they're right, you can get either one you want. According to the "blind listening tests matter" people, the Magni 3+ sounds better than the Heresy, so you should get the Magni 3+.

    Basically, getting the 3+ has you covered no matter which side of this argument is right, so why not get the 3+?
     
  12. makmeksam

    makmeksam Rando

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    I should reword my post. I should have said "the input signal".
     
  13. makmeksam

    makmeksam Rando

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    What do you think about using software to do these fixes/personalizations with arbitrary precision instead of depending on hardware?

    Again, I should reword my post. I should have said "the input signal".
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2019
  14. Mithrandir41

    Mithrandir41 Friend

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    Have you actually gained any insight, or do you just ignore the big questions and redirect your objective "concerns" over and over?
     
  15. makmeksam

    makmeksam Rando

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    Honestly, I do not have any opinion in my mind that I want to highlight over and over again. I modified my post just to make sure that people do not misunderstand the question and give off topic answers due to my poor wording. I do not know why I get dislikes for doing that.
     
  16. AndreaR_94

    AndreaR_94 Acquaintance

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    There's a multiquote function you can use to answer to multiple messages in a single one
     
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  17. Mithrandir41

    Mithrandir41 Friend

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    Because you're repeating yourself and not engaging in useful conversation. @mkozlows gave some good insight... and nothing. This is why SBAF encourages lurking for a good while. Some people just make noise. I really don't even want you to respond to this, just engage usefully in the conversation.
     
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  18. makmeksam

    makmeksam Rando

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    What you say about @mkozlows post is right. I agree it has good information. I did not immediately respond to it because I have to think more. I am checking the forum while doing other things. However, the posts I quoted had said things that I did not mean to ask from the question they quoted from me. That is why I corrected my wording.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
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  19. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Measurements will tell you how accurate a sound system may be in terms of processing music information relative to established and well defined metrics.

    But measurements will not guarantee that you are going to like the system.
     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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