Marvey's DAC Chart of Awesomeness

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by The Alchemist, Sep 28, 2015.

  1. The Alchemist

    The Alchemist MOT: Schiit - Here to help!

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    THIS THREAD IS NO LONGER BEING UPDATED. THE SUCCESSOR THREAD IS HERE: http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/life-after-yggdrasil-watering-the-ash.4036/

    Original Posting by Marvey


    Just playing around with stuff. Would prefer a five dimensional arrangement, but collapsed many sound quality aspects down to two dimensions. I would say that I weigh resolution and microdynamics highest, but a combination of many other good qualities may trump the micro-stuff. Moving DAC thread from HF to here.

    DAC-2010-10.png
    • (1) Only with Empirical Audio Off Ramp via i2s, and preferable with DACLadder HDMI solution. Cheap Chinese Gustard does not cut it. Ciunas is better, gets tone right, but is less resolving.
    • (2) Two Lampi Big 5 units were very strident and digital sounding despite tubes. Digital section needs improvement. Has serious potential.
    • (3) Tries to fake full-bodied sound, but SABRE digital sound manages to get through.
    • (4) Used unit. Left on for at least two days before audition. Several pyrates bore witness to perhaps the nastiest glare ever heard.
    • (5) Similar to Invicta, see #3 above, but even more all over the place.
    • (6) FRM filter
    • (7) Super laid-back, polite, forgiving. k.
    • ( [​IMG] Euphonic, but still a bit digital sounding. Difficult to categorize.
    • (9) PWD mk1 with upgrade board. New PWD mk2 from factory sounded inferior.
    • (10) Delta-sigma digital section much inferior to Yggdrasil. Tube analog output section is clearer and more dynamic.
    • (11) Older firmware and 384 USB

    LINK TO SHORT DESCRIPTIONS ON SOME OF THESE DACS:
    http://www.superbestaudiofriends.or...arveys-dac-chart-of-awesomeness.63/#post-2086
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 2, 2017
  2. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    Looks like [redacted^2]'s name can show up there now!
     
  3. kapanak

    kapanak Canucklehead - Friend

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    The Bifrost Multibit placement was done based on a much older prototype. I think Marv said he will do a proper comparison for the right placement on that chart.
     
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Bifrost Multibit should be moved one up and one right. I'll make the changes during next week.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    COPIED FROM HEAD-FI AND UPDATED FOR SAKE OF COMPLETENESS.

    Thoughts on a Bunch of DACs


    This is a ranking of 17+ DAC and DAC configurations by my ninjas and I. These rankings are largely based on personal preference. They should be taken with a grain of salt. We have heard many more DACs, but these 17 DAC and DAC configurations are ones we feel comfortable making decisive statements about because of the following:
    1. We have spent significant time with them in a controlled environment or we own them.
    2. We have able to solicit opinions from each other, usually in the same sessions as as part of the ongoing semi-regular DAC-offs sessions I hold in my home.
    3. We have been able to compare them with at least several other DAC in the list at the same time.
    There was also a lot of older no longer manufactured or no longer popular junk we have listened to that we didn't bother to comment on. Feel free to ask about other DACs that we have heard, although our opinions of them in comparison to the DACs listed here should not be considered reliable.

    The associated gear used was as follows (it has been consistent so far):
    1. Amps: Schiit Mjolnir. Eddie Current Super 7 (modified)
    2. Headphones: HD800 Anax 3.0 (Beta) Modded, HE-500, JPS Labs Abyss
    3. Speakers: Madisound BK-16 Kit augmented by Fostex T90 supertweeters and one Hsu STF-2 subwoofer placed in a corner of the room. Digital PEQ was applied at the listening position for a smooth response from 20-20kHz with a downward slope of 6db. Room modes and major driver resonances were corrected.
    4. Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 5 USB to SPDIF/i2s converter. Regulator upgrade only on the i2s output. No turboclocks.
    The DACs are ranked according to order of preference and classified into separate categories:
    1. Class E - Exceptional stuff significantly better than anything below it.
    2. Very Good Stuff - Highly Recommended
    3. Good Stuff - Recommended. I use some of this stuff.
    4. Recommended for others
    5. Class S
    6. Beyond Classification - which denotes a conditional recommendation - something we would purchase for specific listening purposes. This is not bad stuff. Just needs to be in the right setup.

    Warning: DACs are a very personal thing and preferences are very specific. It goes without saying that component synergy will play a huge role. There were some minor differences of opinion and DAC ranking among my ninjas and I, but we were able to reach an agreement that we were all happy with. Ultimately it comes down to this: what is would we rather use X or Y, or what do we want to use today? Because personal preference does play a huge role, I am willing to entertain questions concerning specific attributes of any of these DACs.

    Although some DACs were DSD capable, we used PCM to evaluate the DACs because despite our combined extensive SACD collections, 99% of our content was still in PCM.

    Note on OR5 USB Converter: With some exceptions (because of time / effort limitations), if we felt the OR5 didn't improve a DAC significantly enough to change its ranking, we didn't bother with it. The OR5 only improves certain specific aspects of DACs, and even then it can only do so much based on the limitations of the DAC. The few DACs I wished we had a chance to try the OR5 on were the Lavry, M51, Luxman, Gamma2. The Gamma2 would have mainly been out of curiosity since it's DIY and usually obtainable used for a little over two hundred dollars. In any event, only the top three DACs, the Alpha, PWD2, and especially M7, improved significantly with the use of the OR5.

    August 1, 2014 Update:
    My speaker and headphone systems have since changed, so the ranked list will no longer be updated. Also, I haven't had an opportunity lately to stack of bunch of DACs together for more DAC-offs with the other ninjas, so it's difficult to definitively state where they rank in comparison to others. However, because of popular request, I've put my thoughts down on a few DACs here and there where I felt I had a opportunity to properly evaluate them (with known amps, headphones, recordings, etc.)

    Scroll down to the very bottom of this post to see my rambling thoughts on these additional DACs.

    October 24, 2014 Update:
    The two DACs in Class E can no longer be obtained. They are superior to all other DACs on this list. Like far superior. So much superior that I wouldn't bother with anything in the classes below. The unfortunate thing is that they are no longer being made. They were designed in the 90s: the golden age of R2R DACs. They offer vinyl like smoothness - no sigma-delta hash. They offer texture and tonal density not found on anything not R2R. They growl, scream, kick. They offer superior microdynamic contrast. They present a deep holographic soundstage. It's really hard to put into words.

    CLASS E+

    Schiit Yggdrasil USB AES Theta Data III
    With this massive LD based transport, Yggdrasil has a blacker less fuzzy background, deeper stage, and better focused transients. The Data III has a darkish well-damped refined sound.

    Schiit Yggdrasil USB Gen 3
    Just when you think the Gen V is good, the Yggdrasil is even better. You wouldn't believe how much musical information is contained in those 44/16 files; and just how much lesser DACs leave behind. Brings those old or even bad recordings into a new light. Monster dynamics, bass that stops on a dime, tight precision, decay and ambient cues that don't suddenly disappear when they are not supposed to. No digital crap. Makes me reminisce of vinyl in my youth. The Yggdrasil is the 2015 update to the Theta V by the same guys. The Yggdrasil is really beyond words.

    The downside? Kinda sounds like **** in the first few hours. 24-48 hours at minimum to warm up. One week for best results.

    CLASS E

    Theta DSPro Gen V-Va (ST/AT&T optical from Theta Data III)
    Speshal optical connection via hugemongeous laserdisc based transport. AES3 from the Data III is not as good as AES3 from the OR5. The optical takes the cake. No, it's not toslink.

    Theta DSPro Gen V-Va (AES3 via OR5 + Wyrd)
    PCM63 based DAC. Uses four of them. Neutral - if anything maybe slightly laid back. Not warm and gooey, but rather honest sounding. None of that "PCM1704 bass" murkiness. Special custom DSP using Motorola processors. Best soundstage and bass quality I've ever heard from a DAC. Period. Nothing even gets close to it. For the right recording, duplicates the recording venue's space - arrived from ambient cues, reverb, echos, etc.

    Presentation is like a well set up TT with neutral cart. Except with better extension on both ends and much better precision. Incredibly realistic and natural timbre. Smooth and no delta-sigma hashy treble garbage. Overtones of instruments actually roar, growl, twang, etc. A cymbal hit right in front of you sounds just like that. This DAC has faked me out on several occasions. Plankton is as good as anything else out there. This DAC freaks me out every time I hear it.

    Months later: this DAC's space still freaks me out (speakers).

    Sonic Frontiers SFD-1mk2 SE+ upgrades (ST/AT&T optical from Theta Data III)
    Sonic Frontiers SFD-1mk2 SE+ upgrades (AES3 via OR5 + Wyrd)

    UltraAnalog module based DAC. Warmer, bassier. Slightly rolled in last octave. Slightly muddy and dirty sounding compared to above because of tube output stage.* However bass still manages good pitch differentiation. Better soundstage than almost anything below only truly beaten by the Gen V's soundstage. Incredible microdynamics and very good plankton. Despite its slight deficiencies, I'd take it over anything below.

    *pxc SE+ upgrades result in a cleaner more controlled sound.

    VERY GOOD STUFF

    Audio GD Master 7 (i2s from OR5 with USB cut +5V line and AMB Sigma11 power supply feeding the OR5)
    See AGD M7 comments in #5 below. This is where the AGD finally meets or even starts to exceed the PWD2 in terms of technicalities. The +5V USB cut opens up the soundstage, brings about a better sense of space and a bit of air. With the OR5 i2s, the stage gets very deep with stable precise imaging - a HUGE improvement. The OR5 PS blackens the background image and brings about an ease of presentation. That last bit of PCM1704 softness is finally removed - the M7 is finally able to compete with the PWD2, Alpha, and Gungnir on the macrodynamic level. Bass is not as thick as the #5 configuration below, but some warmth still maintained (this is actually to my preference.). In a nutshell, the M7 with the OR5 i2s is where we finally get the best of the R2R (naturalness and smoothness) and Sigma-Delta DAC (resolution and attack) worlds. All DACs have a readily identifiable and describable sound. We can listen to something and say "Ah, that's a Bifrost. Or that's a PWD2." This setup, not so much. And that's a very good thing.

    Bricasti M1 (USB)
    This is a very very good DAC: http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/tho...i-hate-chocolate-ice-cream/1275#post_10855968. Was directly compared to some of the other DACs up here.

    Berkeley Alpha Series 2 (Alpha USB or OR5)
    Haunting similar sounding to the PWD2. You may as well read the PWD2 description below. Both the Alpha USB and OR5 (WASAPI) USB converters sounded essentially the same. Compared to the PWD2 USB, the Alpha 2 has slightly more natural tone, timbre, and liquidity, but does so at the expense of some microdetail. The PWD2 is only able to nudge in front of the Alpha2 via the i2s from the OR5. Unfortunately, the Alpha 2 won't take i2s; and the Alpha USB won't output i2s. The Alpha2 does have the BADA input, but I don't think devices for this input have been developed yet. One of the other ninjas preferred the PWD2 via USB to the Alpha. I preferred the Alpha based on better tone. An excellent DAC, but a proper USB "transport" is required.

    PS Audio PWD2 (AES from Lynx / i2s from OR5 USB Converter / Coax from a Vintage Denon CDP)
    *Upgraded from PWD1 to PWD2 running 2.02 or 2.03 firmware - we are not sure about new PWD2 units as one unit we had sounded very different. Others have reported no issues with their own newer PWD2s.
    Read the PWD2 USB entry below for the "meat." We achieved very positive results using the Lynx Hilo via AES as a USB converter. AES was less favorable using the OR5 compared to it's I2S implementation, so impressions may vary. Superior to PS Audio's XMOS USB solution in every way. This is assuming your AES or coax source is up to par. Results in a more cohesive liquid sound, blacker background, better defined and precision rendering of sounds. Improved clarity and overall resolution, microdynamic performance. BTW, the Perfectwave Transport via i2s isn't all that great. Actually it's incredibly average sounding in our comparison of five separate transports.

    PS Audio PWD2 (USB)
    *Upgraded from PWD1 to PWD2 running 2.02 or 2.03 firmware - we are not sure about new PWD2 units as one unit we had sounded very different. Others have reported no issues with their own newer PWD2s.
    Extremely resolving, great microdynamics, fast sharp attacks, able to reproduce wide gradations in volume. Deep and wide stage with a great sense of space. Maybe wooden and slightly raspy in the treble depending on filter preferences. One trick we used was to upsample Redbook in software to 176k. This shifts the digital filter upward and results in a smoother treble. Tends to have a bit of haze, or a clarity penalty listening from USB. Still the XMOS USB implementation is one of the better ones. The Audiophilleo AP1 USB/SPDIF converter actually sounded slightly worse than the internal PWD2 USB. Firmware revision can make a difference in bass, treble, and overall clarity. The differences can be significant. This can be good for bad depending upon how you look at it. We have not auditioned the latest firmware.

    Audio GD Master 7 (USB - new 8/14/2014 driver and firmware)
    The new USB driver and firmware update is a significant improvement over the original USB firmware the DAC came with. I did not believe it possible, but Kingwa has pulled it off. The stridency, mushy bass, and just the overall feel of "the USB sucks" is now gone. I'd say it's now the equivalent of a decent USB to SPDIF converter solution. Tonally, everything now seems right. It is also slightly more open (deeper stage) and lively sounding. This makes the Master 7 a serious consideration even without an expensive converter or transport.

    Audio GD Master 7 (Coax OR5 or vintage Denon CDP)
    Vocals to die for! Great bass pitch differentiation and texture while being able to sustain power. Natural treble, if not a little rolled in the air region. Best vocals of any DAC we've heard here to date (along with the Metrum and Gungnir). Very engaging, lively, seductive vocal harmonics. Rich in natural vocal timbre. Perhaps a a bit warmer sound as you might find with typical R2R DACs. The transparency window opens up with both USB and PS upgrades on the front end of I2S/AES converters. Without the OR5 i2s, the soundstage was pushed very far back and compressed in terms of depth; and the imaging is not as stable and precise as the above DACs.

    GOOD STUFF

    Schiit Gungnir Gen2 USB Board (USB)
    Highly dynamic. Great tonal balance with bite when the recording calls for it. Like the Lavry DA11, it doesn't do much wrong. Sweet sweet tone. Excellent tonal response with some balls in the bass. Compact but well defined stage with great localization of instruments. Very good sounding treble, one of the best we've heard with a sigma-delta chip. Vocals are only second to the AGD M7 or Metrum. Resolution is not the best, but it can still hang in there. With the Gen 2 USB upgrade, the Gungnir has now found its way into my regular rotation. Now I can feel comfortable lending out one of my better DACs to friends because I have a DAC good enough as a substitute. Some have found the Gungnir Gen 1 to be overly dynamic - having a tendency to be too loud. Think rock arena. That drummer that hits really hard. This is the top one or two hardest hitting DACs out there. This does create a sense of tension which can either be good for bad depending upon you sensitivities. I've never fallen asleep to music listening to this DAC.

    The Gen 2 USB brings to the table some finesse through the restoration of low level sounds which were previously compressed or lost in the Gen 1 USB version. Gen 1 USB also sounds less lively (microdynamics) and less clear. The Gen 2 USB upgrade is significant. It's interesting to note how Schiit has removed all the bad things they said about USB on their website with the release of the Gen 2 USB.

    Auralic Vega (USB EXACT Clock)
    EXACT MODE UPDATE: Maybe the occasional drop-out before everything fully stablizes, but wow! A much more refined smoother less lean sound signature (meaning the Vega still has a treble emphasis but now with some warmth in the bass.) Smoothness or lack of grain is not on the level of the R2R or better AKM implementations, but more akin to the the PWD2 via OR5 - a bit of raspyness and grain.

    Lynx Hilo (USB)
    Clean, clear imaging, excellent separation. A bit flat with its imaging making it more 2D wanting for more depth. Bass can be lacking in body which might make percussive instruments like snares appear a bit brittle which could be a factor over long term listening for some recordings. We wouldn't call the Hilo thin or lean sounding though. The Hilo bests the XSabre and Invicta on inner dynamics even though it lacks the thickness of note which helps contribute to more explosive macrodynamics. There are more transients being illuminated and correspondingly more plankton than the other two. The articulation of sounds is superb, especially because they are painted on a really black background. What’s unique about the Hilo is its very smooth sound signature without reliance on added warmth or bass to cover up issues found upstream. This helps some bad recordings sound more palatable. All these make for an very enjoyable and involving listen.

    Auralic Vega (USB Coarse / Fine Clock)

    Hyper detailed with the same microdynamic authority but almost, almost just as much plankton extraction as the top setups using the external USB converters. It's on the nicely bright side (maybe lean is a better word) as the SABRE nature of this DAC is very evident. Surprisingly, this DAC manages NOT to annoy us too much. There is a very high level of refinement and precision. We applaud the fact that Auralic has allowed this DAC to be SABREish without trying to make it into something else which usually ends up with peculiar results (see Invicta). This is SABRE done right, leveraging all of the SABRE's strengths without covering up its weaknesses. You either take it or leave it. Very clean sounding. On the more analytical side, but not harsh like the Mytek. (One ninja, the one who really disliked the Mytek, remarked "it's tolerable.") Sub and low bass don't have the palpablility of most of the other DACs, but extension is there. Excellent attack, speed, and drive. Great sense of space, layering, separation, and openness. Doesn't have the natural timbre of ladder DACs but instead has a synthesized robotic quality. (I'm exaggerating, but you know what I mean. Think fine silky grain akin to the M51.) But what it does well, it does very very well. This is why we can overlook these weaknesses. The Vega is what the Benchmark DAC wishes it could be. Off Ramp 5 USB to AES added a little bit of bass and warmth, but at the cost of speed. The Vega sounded disjointed (between bass and treble) with the OR5 and we preferred the built in USB which appears to be a very good implementation. This DAC probably plays better with speakers or the LCD2/3 rather than brighter headphones such as the HD800 where fatigue can be an issue. The three ninjas who heard this DAC were split on the ranking of his DAC. The ranking is a compromise.

    Metrum Octave (via Coax OR5 or decent transport)
    (new addition - scroll way down)

    NAD M51 (USB)
    The NAD is a neutral (compared to other DACs in the list which may be slightly warm or bright) sounding DAC with very good resolution, but short in the microdynamics department compared to the best. Good bass power, but not quite as explosive in the bass the better DACs. Good bass extension and good air with a wide stage. The NAD has limitations reproducing wide gradations on the volume scale - compressed in that sense. It's our understanding that there have since been firmware revisions which may have changed the sound of the NAD. The sigma-delta like nature of the M51's treble is slightly evident, but it's not annoying like anything SABRE. It's really detailed in the treble, but something with the timbre is not quite right. Sort of a silky synthesized upper octave. Maybe its because of their internal PCM to PWM conversion process. We are nitpicking, but you readers should already know that.

    Schiit Bifrost Uber Gen 2 USB (USB)
    The Gen 2 USB is more resolving and has more "finesse" than the Gen 1 USB. This is why the Bifrost Gen 2 is rated slightly higher than the Gungnir Gen 1 USB. As you can imagine, the Bifrost is getting way too close for comfort to the Gungnir Gen 2 USB. Bifrost is weaker than the Gungnir G2 in the following ways: slightly less smooth, slightly less dynamic (which may be a good thing for certain people), slightly more grainy. Bifrost G2 and Gungnir G2 are equally resolving. The Uber Analog boards correct two notable issues I had with the original boards: slight mid-bassiness; slight treble stidency. The original Bifrost is not anywhere as resolving. As for the Gungnir G2: make no mistake, the Gungnir is better, even with the single ended outputs. It's also not that much more money because the Bifrost with all the bells and whistles starts to get expensive.

    Schiit Gungnir Gen1 USB Board (USB)
    See Gungnir above. Some can find the Gungnir Gen 1 overly dynamic - having a tendency to be too loud, brash, without finesse, Gen 1 USB seems to drop off the softest sounds or compress them upward. Gen 1 USB also sounds less lively and less clear than Gen 2.

    Audio GD Master 7 (USB - older firmware)
    The USB severely limits what the M7 can really do. Everything gets taken down a notch. Soundstage gets taken down a notch from coax losing even more depth and offering fuzzy unstable images. The M7 also becomes a bit strident in the treble and slower; muddier and thicker in the bass. The midrange tends sounds recessed because of these factors. The USB32 is soft sounding, hazy, and lazy compared to the better transport options. Also the background was rather gray with the USB32. It's still a really good DAC, but nothing exceptional other than still being quite detailed and providing that characteristic R2R sound.

    Lavry DA11 (USB)
    We were pleasantly surprised at how well rounded this DAC sounded. The Lavry's greatest strength is that there was absolutely nothing about it which we found annoying. Especially of note, was the lack of apparent digital glare, stridency or harshness (aka. digitittus). It does everything somewhat well. Staging, resolution, dynamics, tonal balance,etc. Although this is a studio DAC, it does not have the typical studio DAC sound. This is solid conservative choice backed by a well known industry player. The biggest drawback to the Lavry would be it's rather slightly flat presentation lacking ultimate depth and dimensionality. Everything is done well or above average but nothing is excelled at except it's superb tonal balance which maybe the most important aspect for some listeners.

    Matrix X-Sabre (USB)
    Dynamic, precise tight rendering of midrange and treble. Clear sounding with great blackground. Good openness with wide imaging not quite as tight or deep as the best DACs in the list. Highly resolving: better than DA11 and Gungnir above and matching M51. Overall tonality tends toward the very slightly lean side and only in comparison to most the other DACs in this list. Solid piece of aluminum can be used as a weapon. A rather polite and laid back sounding DAC; however as with all SABRE based DACs, there are issues with the treble and bass rendering: the mid/high treble is spitty, the bass while quick, explosive and punchy, tends to lack pitch differentiation and texture. Personally, I didn't have much trouble with the X-Sabre's treble rendering, but I know others who had. Feeding the X-Sabre DSD via DoP sounds slightly better. We recommend converting PCM content to DSD. Don't let the relatively low personal ranking of ours discourage you from trying the X-Sabre out, especially if you are OK with the current sigma-delta DAC kind of sound.

    AMB Gamma2 (USB)
    Great tone. Great slam and bass extension. Great refined sound. Wolfson chips can sound strident or raspy, but I assure you that this is not the case here. Maybe a slight tilt toward a dark tonality. Short in the resolution department, probably because of the ASRC chip, although I've heard this DAC is much more resolving with a good coax source. Amazing sound for such little DAC. It sounds like a bigger desktop DAC.

    Metrum Quad (Coax or OR5)
    This is the entry level DAC for Metrum's R2R NOS line of DACs. While we loved the timbre and smoothness of this DAC, especially for voices, we ultimately found the Quad too laid back sounding. Laid back as too in polite. Not enough bite in voices, trumpets, and percussion. Note that "laid back" should not be misinterpreted for warm or thick sounding. Treble and bass extension were very good. Stage was compact and intimate. Bass tended to get syrupy with the PC/Coax, but was fine with the OR5. Control and precision were good from the mids on up. The OR5 helped deepen the stage and provide a better sense of the space. The Quad's presentation lends itself to vocals at the expense of other instruments. Easily the least resolving of all the DACs in the "good stuff" category. This DAC is the opposite of the Vega. Good stuff and recommended if you like this kind of presentation.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
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  6. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    RECOMMENDED FOR OTHERS

    #13 PS Audio DirectStream DAC (USB)
    (new addition - scroll way down)

    #14 Resonessence Invicta (USB)
    http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/resonessence-invicta-dac-usb-tidbit.90/

    #15 Chord Hugo (USB)
    (new addition - scroll way down)

    #16 Benchmark DAC1 (USB, Coax from Pure i120)
    This ubiquitous DAC is not particularly impressive. As many others have observed, the DAC1 is the thin sounding side. It lacks bass impact and seems to apparently get weaker in bass volume as we go downward to the extreme. It does a good job of presenting detail on a macro level, but lacks the ability to resolve low level information. Even though this DAC is on the thinner sounding side, its treble behavior was not as bad I was I left to believe. The treble is not horribly etched, glaring, or anything that like. It took us several years to get a friend to dump this DAC, and when he finally did, he thanked us. Reportedly the DAC1 sounds much better with a decent USB/SPDIF converter, exceeding the Gamma2 above. We have yet to test this.

    #17 Yulong DA8 (USB)
    (new addition - scroll way down)

    #18 ODAC (USB)
    At its best, the ODAC sound expansive, detailed, and precise in imaging. At its worst, the ODAC sounds closed-in, flat, dull, uninteresting, and with wooly bass (Class S). It depends upon the USB connection. Overall the ODAC is not as precise in rendering of sounds. This is where the comparable Modi exceeds its performance. Comparatively, the Schiit Modi is able to reproduce a wider range of more continuous of volumes than the ODAC. Still, the fact that a DAC can even make sounds from USB power is amazing. Nwavguy was right when he said it sounded as good as a Benchmark DAC1. With a good USB connection and power, the ODAC could be catapulted several spots higher.


    BEYOND CLASSIFICATION

    Eximus DP-1 (USB)
    We do hope though that anyone considering the DP-1 has actually listened to it (rather than relying on hype) before deciding on a purchase. We liked the DAC, but for specific purposes. While we liked the DP-1's sweet treble and instrument separation on the highs, we found bass extension, power, dynamics and overall control through the entire audio band somewhat lacking. Sounds were always a hair fuzzy and not tightly focused. We would have also liked more micro-detail extraction given the price. The upsample button did one of two things (off = more detail/slight digititus, on=smoother/less detail). The Eximus is mid-foward, fun sounding, has a deep three dimensional soundstage, a bit soft, but euphorically enjoyable. It's enjoyable especially if you don't A/B it w/ anything more capable. Nevertheless, it's not a bad fit specifically for something like the TH900 which as a lot of bass energy anyways, provided that a good head-amp is used. We did not like the DP-1 on electrostatics because the e-stats can be light on bass impact if the DAC is light on bass impact. Beware the headphone out.

    Luxman DA-06 (USB)
    Think of this DAC as the Luxman P1u (headamp) of DACs. The Luxman P1u is well known to be euphonic sounding despite it being a solid state amp. The P1u actually sounds like an inferior version of the Eddie Current Zana Deux - the ZD is way better (separation, dynamics, articulation, microdynamics and detail... everything). In that sense, the DA-06, at least through USB, is more P1u than Zana Deux. This DAC's sound is difficult to describe. It's sort of got a inner warmth. That is warm without being bloomy or loose. All of the ninjas agreed that the amp was a little flat sounding and tended to blend everything together. Depth, layering, and seperation were certainly not its strong points. Personally, I liked it. It's like riding in a nice Mercedes. One ninja remarked I am allowed to like this DAC and place it in the Beyond Classification because he himself liked the Eximus DP-1 while I hated it. If there is anything I regret, it's that we lacked time to try this DAC out with the OR5 or BADA USB converters. What these converters bring to the table happen to suit this DAC's weaknesses.

    Lampizator 4/5
    I've heard three different Lampis (4, and two Big 5s I believe) via a variety of Schiit or EC amps, and they seem to be all over the place. None of them sounded exactly the same. It irks me that there are so many models, making straight comparisons impossible, i.e. "which Lampi?" Then there's the issue of tube rolling - there are a lot of options and tubes to roll inside. Supposedly the OR5 helps tremendously, but I have not heard a Lampi with an OR5. One thing I feel pretty confident saying is that the analog tube section is fantastic: resolving, clear, immediate without bloat or tooby-ness. Unfortunately, this puts on spotlight on the USB receiver and DAC circuitry which sounded mediocre or pretty darn good but with showstopper type warts (slight treble digititus or grating stridency.) As things stand, I can not recommend the 4 or the Big 5 to friends, unless they are the type that wouldn't mind spending an additional X amount of tubes, tweaking with caps, etc. You could be just as well off buying a cheapo DCX2496, wiring in a boutique clock board, and connecting the output directly from the DAC chips to a tube amp like the BA. There have been four Lampis on sale (4, 5, 6, and 7) for quite a while now on the 'gon. Ears I trust say the Big 7 is good, but we are getting into five figures now.


    CLASS S

    Teac UD-501 (Coax from Sony Transport)
    Presents a staticy unrefined grain found in many low cost low performance products. An overall rough unrefined signature which imparts itself upon the music. Not too different from many mediocre or poor quality headphones and amps. On the analytical side with on the moderately high scale in false detail. Slightly lean. The treble, while not as bad as most SABRE implementations, screams delta-sigma. It gets annoying after a while. It ain't exactly cheap either. If you really want to try DSD / DoP, try the Schiit Loki first.

    Audinst HUD-MX2
    We did not find this DAC as outright annoying as the other DACs in "Class S", but it's simply just not very good sounding. There is a strong possibility that your laptop line-out is better sounding. This DAC is veiled and flat sounding, as if the output were run through a chain of op-amps or Objective 2 amplifiers (they measure great, sound mediocre). The rending of sounds is imprecise. It's hard to explain, but it this DAC exhibits a certain kind of raw unrefined sound common with portable DACs - the bad ones. Macro-dynamics and extension at both ends, especially the bass, is poor. I almost placed this DAC in the "Recommended for Others", until I realized I would only give this DAC as a gift to my enemies.

    Mytek Stereo192-DSD DAC (USB)
    Supposedly sounds better after 400 hours burn-in, with the use of firewire, feeding it DSD, or lowering the gain via jumpers. Unfortunately, my PC doesn't have firewire and we forgot to try DSD. Just to make things clear: the first sample model we got our hands on was used. We left it on for two days before our evaluation. While the Mytek was very detailed and resolving, we couldn't stomach the treble glare which was almost immediately apparent. It took a while for me for the glare to affect me, but this quality as immediately annoying to two others who had heard it. A second unit we heard (also well used and left on for a period of time) also exhibited this glare. In addition, we found sub-bass volume rather lacking. Think of this DAC as a hyper Benchmark DAC1. There are thousands of people who love this DAC and many great reviews of it. We are definitely in the minority.

    Yulong DA8 (USB)
    http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/yulong-da8-dac-usb-tidbit.89/

    iDSD Nano (USB)
    I don't like any of the PCM179x DACs. The sound is not offensive with digitius, but rather slow and dead. Lots of people like the ifi Micro iDSD. I only have the ifi Nano iDSD in my possession, and it is one of the biggest turds I've ever heard.

    ===========================

    Thoughts on other DACs not included in the above lists.

    My speaker and headphone systems have since changed, so the following DACs will not be ranked.Also, I haven't had an opportunity lately to stack of bunch of DACs together for comparative purposes, so it's difficult to gauge. 9/15/2014: Some of the DACs below have been move to the above lists after head-to-head comparisons with above DACs.


    RECOMMENDED FOR PYRATES OR NINJAS

    Schiit Modi 2 (USB)
    Wyrd still improves it, but doesn't quite need it anymore. Tone is not as thin as Modi 1.

    Schiit Wyrd+Modi (USB)

    Astoundingly good for the price. The Modi by itself can sound thin at times depending upon USB power quality. The Modi also has a tendency to sound imprecise or lacking in focus. The Wyrd solves these issues. 1+1 = 3 in this case. While not as good as a Bifrost Uber w/ Gen 2, the Wyrd+Modi is an very involving listen with good dynamics. While it doesn't resolve, or have the focus, smoothness, refined quality of the the best DACs, it certainly does not sound flat and boring. The Wyrd+Modi was able to keep me up until 1pm listening to music, and few DACs can do that. Hands down the best $200 DAC I've ever heard.

    Metrum Octave
    A significant improvement over the Quad. Not as laid back as the Quad (mentioned above). More resolving than the Quad. Potential buyers should take note that Metrum Octave could still be too laid back and not resolving enough for them; but I found its resolution adequate (more than good for most types of speakers.) The Octave is smooth, liquid, does voices really well, yet agile and articulate. Personally, I'd pair it with components (amps, transducers, transports) which have a ton of slam, punch, attack. External CD transport or USB to SPDIF is required. A good part of the sound, maybe 25-33% will be attributed to these external components. The Metrum doesn't seem to be as sensitive to transport as other DACs. Kudos to the guys at Metrum for not ripping people off. I thought this DAC would have cost much more.


    CLASS P (New!) PISS POOR VALUE
    RECOMMENDED FOR PEOPLE WHO POST THEIR MARRIAGE PROPOSALS ON FACEBOOK


    Chord Hugo
    Jack of all trades and extremely mediocre doing nothing terribly wrong. Overall refinement is lacking with treble coarseness on par with DACs less than 40% of its price. Otherwise decent tone, decent macrodynamics, decent microdynamics, decent resolution. Somewhat flat and lacking in dynamics. Like 1000 USD decent, although one of the ninjas says I was giving it too much credit and that it's more like $500 decent. Headstage lacks depth. Portability and lack of wires is the advantage here. I still can't get over the Fisher Price Toy looks and rolly blue ball thing. Depending upon who you talk to, DSD handling of the Hugo is either better than PCM or worse than PCM. I'm inclined to think its the latter. Sound is highly variable depending upon USB / computer. I wonder if a Schiit Wyrd would help, but then that would add more wires including a power brick. Because is a really popular DAC on Head-Fi with very vocal proponents, I have given the Hugo second, third, and fourth takes on it. No, just no, it's not worth the $2500. Not even close. Robb Watts seems to only want to talk about taps or 300db dynamic range; but really, there are many other parts to a good DAC: digital receiver, analog output, and power supply.

    PS Audio DirectStream DAC (USB)
    The PSA-DSD does have a lot of the “PerfectWave” sound; but with the following caveats or specific characteristics: 1) tonal balance reverts to the PWD-1’s tonal balance - very forward with an emphasis in the upper midrange; 2) lacks sub and low bass impact, similar to some of the PWD2 DACs [new production, non-upgraded from PW1] running the newer brighter sounding firmware versions; 3) smoother treble characteristics [but still slightly delta-sigma raspy], akin to feeding the PWD2 PCM oversampled in software; 4) which also results in less delineated transients and duller attacks. Unfortunately, this effect seems to be carried so overboard where the PSA-DSD sounds slightly on the flat and dull side. Microdynamics have taken a serious hit. One step forward and one step back. Two ninjas I spoke to and myself preferred the PWD1->2. It may come down to preferences. Maybe best to think of it as different, not better. We heard the PSA DSD on two separate setups with amps, headphones, and recordings we were familiar with. Only built-in USB was used, so I cannot comment on its performance with the OR5's i2s output.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
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  7. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    reserved - making edits right now to above...
     
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  8. Prydz

    Prydz Wow, I made it this far without being a friend?

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    Would love if you could test Metrum's new "musette" DAC, based on the Pavane if im not wrong.
    Its priced similar to Gungnir multibit, so that will be a battle!
     
  9. jmcmasterj

    jmcmasterj Friend

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    I can't comment on the Hex, but I felt the stock W4S DAC 2 was well behind the new PWD2 in terms of resolution and tonal balance.
     
  10. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Can speak for the Metrum Quad and Hex. Skip both of them, or anything in that "generation," really. They have good tone and do vocals really well, but they're just too smoothed over and lack a lot of fine details. The new Metrums stuff, Pavane and Musette, seem to be much more accurate on paper, so I imagine they'll have that nice Metrum tone with much better resolution and detail extraction. Haven't heard them myself, but that's my guess.

    If you want a multibit, non-oversampled DAC, I really love the Audial Model S Mk2. Not even a contest against the Hex. I thought it stood up well to the Theta Gen Va and Yggdrasil when you consider how each is going to have different strengths and weaknesses.
     
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  11. dubiousmike

    dubiousmike Friend

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    Nathan - FWIW, this is not at all unique to the Yggdrasil and has been blown out of proportion. Most all dac makers recommend leaving their products on continuously. As a general rule, the oscillators present in all dacs are highly impacted by thermal changes and benefit from reaching equilibrium.

    Yggdrasil has a long initial warm up/break in period but comes up to speed much faster after that. Our power has been turned off on a few occasions since I received mine, and it still sounds very good right after it is turned back on - even if the sound does improve/mature a bit as the internal temperature equalizes. I suspect the same is true of all high end dacs.
     
  12. Sqveak

    Sqveak Friend

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    Hands.

    On CS you reviewed the Mousai MSD192.
    I'm curious to know where you think it would sit on this chart.
    What say you?
     
  13. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    It's OK. I'd rather get something from Schiit or the Gamma2.
     
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  14. Sqveak

    Sqveak Friend

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    Fair enough.

    I'm interested because I have the Mousai and am considering some Schiit gear.
    My only point of reference on this chart is the ODAC so I have no idea where the Mousai is in relation to the rest.

    The Mousai is great when the OS wants to get along with it but the lack of consistency in standards compliance is doing my head in.
    Windows 10 is unsupported. The drivers refuse to install. Compatibility settings don't work. :(
    OSX is either quite good or quite nasty depending on the player and settings. o_O
    Linux works! Yay! :D
     
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  15. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    The MSD192 and Auralic Vega are the only two D-S dacs to which I listen anymore. I think highly of both. Yet any of the three Schiit MB DACs will provide an immersive dimension and depth to the listener that must be experienced to fully appreciate. It takes a day or so of power on time, more for the Ygg, before the morphing takes place. After, be forewarned, listening becomes extremely addictive. So the MSD192 is quite the bargain at $400US, but for the extra investment, the Bifrost MB is an extraordinary DAC. For reference, I own all the DACs mentioned for my lab. The MultiFrost performance is incredible. It just gets better from there up the Schiit ladder of MB.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
  16. TMoney

    TMoney Shits on SBAF over at Head-Case to be cool

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    I think that to be troll you should put "A good vinyl rig" above every DAC on the list. Maybe put "Reel-to-reel" above that. :cool:
     
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  17. insidious meme

    insidious meme Ambivalent Kumquat

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    True, but what if the stuff you want to listen to doesn't come out on vinyl or reel2reel, then where are you?
     
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  18. TMoney

    TMoney Shits on SBAF over at Head-Case to be cool

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    Further down the list, natch.
     
  19. zeissiez

    zeissiez Turn that Schiit down - acquaintance

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    Fujak has done a review of HE-7 vs Master 7:

    His quotes:
    ".......The HE-7 has a better soundstage in width and depth. You can better listen into the music. It's more detailed and resolved. The HE-7 has a better blackness in backround and in the foreground much more dynamic and impact especially in mids and bass. Imaging is far better. instruments are "nailed in space"; instrument separation and sharpness of localization is better than M7.
    I listen to the HE-7 since 2 weeks ago. Recently I was curious how it sounds changing back to M7. I can say, it's like a fall from heights..... "
     
  20. Original Ken

    Original Ken Friend

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    This is the biggest problem with vinyl. Sure if your turntable setup is top notch, then - with the right audiophile pressing - you arguably can have reproduction a little better than any DAC.

    But for many of my favorite albums, a good quality vinyl is $200 and the CD is $10. Often the vinyl itself is crap recycled vinyl from the OPEC boycott era.

    And then, if you are only talking about a reference point obtained by that audiophile pressing, then what about the master tape that was used to generate the vinyl ? It is better sound quality by definition, so therefore one should be amassing 1960 pro tube decks and master tapes. You can find real master tapes for sale of crap albums that no one wants. Since this is only for a reference point, then the music itself does not matter (and in fact, that is the premise of many audiophile albums, lol).

    But you can do better than that. Hire a string quartet to play in the back yard, rent two Neumann mikes and connect them to your preamp, and you have a reference point that cannot be excelled.

    Vinyl can be a fun hobby, what with the big pictures and all, but these days, it is more for listening to the stereo than listening to music.
     
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