Modi Multibit: Multibit for the masses.

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by MrTie, Jul 25, 2016.

  1. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Oh shoot, you're right. I misread the figures and thought that energy usage was given per month. Still, if you're at the point where you're pinching pennies over roughly a cup of coffee a month...
     
  2. sirrealist

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    I'm not pinching pennies and I'm not complaining. I was just pointing out that thankfully, it uses very little electricity over the course of a month since the recommendation is to leave it on 24/7, and then pointed out an error in your calculation.
     
  3. DigMe

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    Too much pedantic noise here.. please move on from the irrelevant cost-of-electricity-in-Hawaii discussion.
     
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I find this hard to believe and can only assume that Hi-Fi World fucked up, like fucked up big time (like incompetent*) on their measurements. See here for Modi MB measurements: http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/schiit-modi-mb-technical-measurements.2603/

    THD was measured at 0.0590% / 0.00723% by @atomicbob . 1.4% is unacceptable for a DAC and unlikely that Schiit would make something like this considering the type of measurement equipment that they have. I'll take some measurements when I get a chance. My gear isn't as good as @atomicbob's, but I should get good enough results.

    *It's possible their unit was broken, but these kind of results demand communication with the manufacturer.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
  5. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    Newsflash: magazine measurements are far from infallible. Even ones from "leading" magazines.

    Why are they fallible? Because the people running the gear are usually very far from being engineers.

    There's also the constantly-appended editorial subtext that can laud an amp that blew up during 1/3 power testing as "superbly engineered" yet cast aspersions on affordable alternatives.

    Why the press can't simply do their job and report in an impartial manner (and ask difficult questions, especially when confronted with new "final boss" formats that are supposed to make your music more shiny and happy) is a constant question I mull. But I'm not the press. So there you go,
     
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I added to my original post: Those kind of results almost demand that they contact you. If I saw something that like on a DAC, I'd figure something was broken. 1.4% is bad tube amp, like really bad tube amp distortion.
     
  7. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Well, their distortion result is for a -60dB signal, which is not too far fetched if you look at @atomicbob's FFT results for that and estimate a THD+N value from the spurs. I know it's a test for dynamic range, and I believe that DR value is calculated differently than you would for THD relative to a signal, but I think it still uses a -60dB sine? (Am I wrong or missing something?)

    Even then, who the heck publishes a -60dB signal as their main distortion result?

    Edit: Also, subjectively described as slightly bright. Not sure I want to know what they think is neutral.
     
  8. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    I suspect it may have something to do with the way they are interpreting the -60dB results, but I'm not 100% sure.

    Comments about press measurements still apply. I'd trust AtomicBob over all of them. Sorry, any members of the press.
     
  9. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    On the other hand, there are lots of people who ask how to get the most second-harmonic distortion they can, thinking it's "tubelike." So maybe their interpretation will sell more DACs.

    No big deal either way. Same way when Marv mentions at a meet that one of our cheap products sounds better than a more expensive one. I tell him, "Yeah, I know, go ahead and tell everyone, they won't believe it anyway."
     
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Ah got it. If they even had a measurement equipment noise floor at -95db with a -60db signal, that would do it. I'd like to see the entire FFT.

    I'd place the Modi as ever so slightly dark (subjectively downward sloping, but not warm) in the universe of DACs that I have heard.
     
  11. ultrabike

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    Yes, I'm not sure but proly makes sense indeed. I also just looked at the graph and indeed the delta there is about 40 dB to the highest peak at 24 kHz (-60 dBFS @ 1kHz to ~ -100dBFS), which ends up around 1%.

    But that measurement is for dynamic range, not THD. I think those may be done using 0 dBFS? I think Schiit uses max output (0 dBFS)
     
  12. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    I think quite a few people here have got the memo on some of your cheaper products.
     
  13. TwoEars

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    Here's my take on it.

    1) People place too much faith in "the press" as an institution. The press is nothing more than a collection of individuals with varying backgrounds, skill and insight. There are rarely any meetings where people sit down an say "what did we really think of this product, was it really better than x?". The writers are there to come up with funny and interesting stuff that sell magazines, and to a large extent they can write and cover whatever they feel like. The writers are going to be biased one way or another whether they know it or not, everyone is. The editors are there to help find new products, plan future issues and proof read. But that an editor criticizes a writer, or asks him to change something, is extremely uncommon. It doesn't matter if you're talking to one of the biggest magazines in the world, because at that moment you're talking to their reporter and he is probably going to end up writing whatever he wants. No one cares about, or has time for, peer review. Sometimes it works in your favor if the reporter likes your product, or thinks it makes a good story. Other times not so much.

    2) Don't bite the hand that feeds. If a manufacturer places huge ads in your magazine every month you're going to be biased, there's no way around it. You're going to give them a pass on something, you're going to give them one more chance, you're going to get in contact with their customer service and ask why something didn't work they way it was supposed to. You're going to accept their explanation, you're going to write it off as a fluke, you're going to commend them for their excellent support. At the end of the day if you have to write something bad about them you will, but you're going to take every conceivable step on the way to make sure it doesn't come to that. No one wants to be the jackass that pissed off a major advertiser. You're not only putting your own paycheck in danger, you're putting your colleagues paychecks in danger too.

    3) Very little is gained by going against the grain. If an established and respected reporter writes that a respected and expensive product is good it serves the status-quo and everyone is happy. If the same reporter writes that an unknown product can't compete with the best well-known brands it serves the status-quo and mostly everyone is happy. But if an established and respected reporter writes that an unknown start-up company has made something spectacular, which make other products look like overpriced rip-offs, he's putting his professional reputation on the line. And he's probably making a lot of readers angry and insecure who might have bought those expensive products on his recommendation.

    4) 75-90% of readers don't want carefully thought out advice and comparisons. They want "gadget porn" with witty easy to read commentary, and buyer confirmation that make them feel good about themselves. As an example 99% of car nuts will read an article about a Ferrari, but only the ones interested in actually buying a Fiat Panda will read a test between a Fiat Panda and Skoda Fabia. High-end audio, car and boat magazines are more about escapism than professional unbiased journalism.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
  14. Hands

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    I think most THD or especially THD+N calculations factor in more than just the highest spur peak, no? Like a combination of all spurs and noise to get the value through some magical wizardry formula? I don't know the methods and math well enough, just high level concepts. So, yeah, if highest spur is, say, -100dB, and most THD methods I've seen have higher percentage values with all the other spurs and noise added in...1.4% with a questionable noise floor on their ADC at -60dB is very possible.

    I'm guessing Schiit is using 0dB or -1dB.

    I mentioned the DR test because some methods I've seen use -60dB, 1KHz sine waves but then calculate the DR value with an SFDR method (sometimes just outright ignoring the 1KHz sine and only looking at the resulting spurs), which I don't believe gives the same value as a THD calculation. But the FFT will still look the same, I think.

    Still, no one publishes -60dB results as their overall distortion result. If you want to do that, you damn well better give distortion values at other levels like a datasheet!

    Right? So, they publish weird, or even misleading, measurement results, and think the Modi MB is slightly bright. At least I know to not put faith in them for subjective or objective purposes.
     
  15. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I see what you are saying. Yes, the proper measurement more than likely integrates residual noise and distortion over a bandwidth or so.

    More than likely their measurement equipment noise floor is screwing things up. The noise floor in @atomicbob measurements is like in the -120 dBFS range.

    It could also be that they are just looking at peaks and inferring things. Or both (making wrong inferences and using lack luster measurement equipment).
     
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    You mean like this guy? https://www.lifewire.com/oppo-digital-pm-1-headphone-measurements-3134572

    I called him on his distortion measurements being in linear scale (instead of log scale) on HF a few years ago. He still doesn't get it. Also we hear drivel such as "Third, we are still in a primitive stage of understanding of distortion measurements of audio transducers.", which I call BS on, especially since folks like Zaph (zaphaudio.com) have been doing this for almost 10 years, and JBL has been doing it for at least 50, maybe 60 or 70 years.

    Also, his arguments that taking distortion at 90db+ is unrealistic anyway, that distortion almost never exists with headphones at normal listening levels, and that people can only hear 10%+ HD at 90db. are kind of BS'y too. Those who have seen the distortion measurements here (in all cases well under 10%), know that 1% at 87-90db levels easily correlates to something that we can hear. The crux of his lack of understanding being his plotting of distortion at linear scale.

    Finally, you guys should have read his earlier conclusion on the inaudibility of the PM-1's midrange distortion in an earlier iteration of the article posted on about.com. At least he's provided a few caveats ("we can't draw conclusions, "Headphone measurement is still in its infancy" now with this revision of the original article on lifewire.com

    Just an example of someone who does not, or at most, kinda knows that he is doing. That fact that this guy says he's measured more than 174 headphones, makes it all that scarier.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
  17. ultrabike

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    I think everybody makes mistakes. The question is, are they going to own up to them, learn from them, and move forward. It would be nice if some of these magazines would accept feedback and redo some of their tests to get to the bottom of things. Stereophile in the past seemed to give vendors a chance at this. But not sure how the situation is now.
     
  18. mrflibble

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    I did not think very positively of the Hi-Fi World review nor of their two page article on multibit technology.

    In the review they considered the Modi Multibit to be brighter and more clinical sounding than an Audiolab MDAC+. I don't have experience of the MDAC+, but I do own an original MDAC. And never in a million years is the Modi Multibit brighter than the MDAC. Maybe the MDAC+ sounds vastly different to the MDAC, but I doubt it. They are both Sabre DACs and I have it on good authority that the MDAC+ is based on a similar design to the MDAC. The review does not give me confidence in the Hi-Fi World magazine. In a couple of places in the magazine they even mispelled Schiit, by omitting the 'c' !

    I do not really understand what are good and bad distortion figures, but I know what I hear. And I prefer the sound of the Modi Multibit to my MDAC, it is much more musical and easier to listen to. The MDAC has a flatter sound stage and is more aggressive.

    On page 6 of the magazine they state that they used a Rohde & Schwarz UPV spectrum analyser to measure the Modi Multibit. Quote: "Distortion is measured at -60dB with both CD and hi-res digital test signals generated by the UPV - here fed optically using a glass QED Reference optical quartz TOSLINK cable."

    The Hi-Fi Choice review (which I read in the newsagent) is written much more positively and the Modi Multibit got full marks :)
     
  19. murray

    murray Friend

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    Do you know how quiet -60dB is from a digital source? Try playing a -60dB test tone and you will have to strain really hard to hear it, without cranking up the volume knob (yes, I just double checked to be sure). For -60dB to be above your household noise floor, then 0dB would probably be deafening - over 100dB sound level.
     
  20. WhoCares

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    I don't know much about measurements other than frequency but I do know the Modi Multibit sounds really nice to me. I've only had it for a few days but I can hear a deference compared to using my X5II headphone and line out. I'm waiting for my USB cable to be delivered so I can use it with my computer.
     

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