Schiit Midgard Review, Impressions, Measurements, Science

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by purr1n, Oct 27, 2023.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I hadn't intended on covering the Midgard so soon after its release, but there seemed to be quite a bit of interest in this product, particularly the Halo topology. Some deal about error correction by incorporating the transducer in the feedback loop. I haven't read into the papers on this really, so I can't say much. The Halo thing only works through the XLR output for obvious reasons. One noted downside is higher output impedance, 2-ohms in this case. I figure the reason we never saw this much with speaker amps could be this higher output impedance. As with most things, I am guessing that by the time the paper(s) on how to do this came out or become well known, the industry was obsessed with "damping factor". Yeah, the audio industry goes through fads too. There is a reason why some speaker amp designs in the early 80s, even by guys who were really good at discrete designs, used opamps. THD was a selling point at that point in time (thanks to Doug Self). Eventually people stopped caring about THD. Until NWAVGUY. Then NWAGUY disappeared for a few years. Only for Audio Science Review to appear and take the THD zealotry to the next extreme.

    [​IMG]

    THD+N / SINAD has gotten so stoopid to the point where Schiit now lists specs for the Midgard as follows (LOL):

    Power: plenty for all headphones except maybe Tungsten
    Noise: inaudible on all headphones and IEMs
    Distortion: unmeasurable at normal listening levels; 1000x lower than the typical headphones you're using
    One thing I am interesting in is taking measurements from the transducer to see if Halo makes even a slight difference. Just curious. Schiit makes no claims, but I am curious.

    ...offering the potential for better control at driver resonance and improved acoustic results. However, since confirming that would require years of research and still have everyone arguing about it, we decided to do something crazy: introduce this amp at a great price and let you decide.

    That being said, I will offer my subjective impressions. I would have liked to do a blind test with the ABX machine. However it's not possible to hook up an ABX test with a balanced and single ended output because the comparator machine is SE only.

    First of all, the single ended output is OK, but otherwise remarkable. It doesn't sound bad. I would say maybe it's kind of like a Magni 2 Uber on steroids for those who remember that amp. The balanced output is quite remarkable. The sound is very much solid-state but with a very spacious headstage. Headstage is wide, maybe even wider than Mjolnir 3. It's not placed in front nor it is deep, but there's definitely an expansive feeling. I don't feel crushed. The highs from the XLR output are smoother and less sharp edged than the phono jack output, but it doesn't sound artificially smoothed over. Tonality is neutral. It basically sounds like a really good class AB amp that I would find at boutique mix stage that installed passive ATC monitors. Super clear, articulated, super delineated, without sounding unnaturally fast or zippy. The Midgard, despite its stupid low price, is what I would consider one of the better implementations of "wire-with-gain" sound. The tone isn't warm and slightly veiled like the TPA5120 based high-SINAD amps (Topping L30, Magnius, etc), nor is the tone slightly leanish like the THX high-SINAD deals. It's not going to hide what Grados do. It's not going to take the edge off the highs of the HD800S. However, it's very rewarding with a neutralish headphone like the JAR600. The best part is the Midgard is hardly flat and boring sounding, like those high negative feedback designs (125db+ open loop gain). Dynamic, hefty, and with lots of detail, almost seems like the detail is brought up a little bit.

    On to science...

    SINAD here: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...measurements-science.13897/page-3#post-418723
    GONAD here: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...measurements-science.13897/page-3#post-418729
     
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    Last edited: Nov 4, 2023
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Here is 55.66Hz from the JAR600 at almost 98db

    XLR output
    upload_2023-10-27_20-53-35.png

    Phono TRS output (YEL is the XLR for ref)
    upload_2023-10-27_20-53-48.png

    Too close to call. 0.01% can go either way, depending where the cat is in the house.
     
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  3. JellyRhino

    JellyRhino Facebook Friend

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    Maybe less physically damped headphones... Grados?
     
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  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Two-tone, 75Hz and 200Hz into Grado RS2X

    Phono / TRS
    upload_2023-10-27_21-24-31.png

    XLR (YEL is phono for ref)
    upload_2023-10-27_21-25-11.png

    XLR (YEL is phono for ref)
    Zoom in
    FFT size 131K Kaiser7 12AVG
    upload_2023-10-27_21-27-11.png

    Maybe? Harmonics are a few db lower on the XLR output compared to phono. Still too close to call unless I can replicate consistently, on another day, etc.
    (ignore the 60Hz hum, crossed out in red)
     
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    Last edited: Oct 27, 2023
  5. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Could be talking out the wrong end but I'm curious to see worm sign differences here, or burst response. Not sure if that'll reveal anything but could be interesting, particularly for the Grados and against something more well-damped perhaps. The Mini C if you still have that on hand?
     
  6. ecline56

    ecline56 Almost "Made"

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    Does the Midgard have the typical Schitt treble issues (I think this has been termed treble fuckery)? I never seem to like their amps treble presentations. I will admit I am treble sensitive but I do not have the same issues with my M^3/ Whammy/ Sunrise 3 or Liquid Gold.
     
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    If you don't have a problem with the Magni+ / Vali 2++, then you shouldn't have a problem with this. if you have a problem with the Magni+ / Vali 2++, then you should go elsewhere. M^3 (with the right opamp), WHAMMY, and LG are gentle in the highs and on varying side of warm.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 27, 2023
  8. mediumroast

    mediumroast Friend

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    Considering measurements and correlations with opinion is.. The human ego is: " I measured A and I want to see it correlated to what I am hearing." Of course , A simple measurement is not going to correlated well to the infinite amount of subtle detail / mechanics / electrical wizardry that is the real life system. Even simple concepts like current are not that simple when looked at more closely.

    I laugh at people measuring, and hammering it through, "I did A(measure) there for it mus be B (impression)" Well, if the measurement is detailed enough, captures enough of the system (maybe 10 different) then it brings out a correlation.

    Even to this day, I am super impressed by the 2A3 amplifiers, considering that they are actually not expensive considering the sonic performance (friends gear). I want to see someone measure the soundstage difference between EC 2A3 MK2 vs og EC Studio. Highly unlikely that this can be measured, because you are probably not measuring It, you are measuring something else.

    In contrast, I think that headphone measurements like waterfall plots and square wave response plots are more useful. They tell you quite a lot about the system and the important characteristics.


    Nice to see new developments in the solid state amp category !
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2023
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    No doubt suggestions will affect what people hear. Suggestions on the latest tech, suggestions via marketing speak, heck even suggestions via looking at measurements (without understanding how they correlate to human experience or how they interact with other components). Yes, these suggestive human elements also go against "objectivist" belief! Measurements (regardless of whether they really matter or not) will influence what humans believe just as much as the fancy jewel encrusted chassis with VU meters!

    I love it when Amir (he's so full of shit) says how he can hear the "massive distortion" coming from an HD650 between a 90db SINAD an 115db SINAD amp when 99.99% of the distortion is coming from the HD650 itself.

    The only way to settle this is with blind testing which I am a huge proponent.
     
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  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Thinking about this, I can see people coming to this belief because garbage in = garbage out. So obviously less than perfect distortion from an amplifying device is going to carry for to the transducer. Totally logical for smart people to believe this.

    The problem is that things are much more nuanced than this. The distortion from produced by transducers themselves is a zillion times higher than amps, to the point where the amp doesn't make a difference (as long as it can reasonably drive the transducer). Think of it this way: will thirty ants in your pocket slow you down in a foot race compared to four ants?

    Let me provide an example, that is show that a 90db SINAD vs 115db+ SINAD makes no difference when it comes to steady state distortion measurements.

    JAR600 driven by Nitsch Piety (~90db SINAD, possibly worse) 104.93db SPL
    Hanning 32k FFT 30AVG
    upload_2023-10-28_13-0-32.png

    JAR600 driven by Midgard (115db+ SINAD, possibly worse) 104.96db SPL
    Hanning 32k FFT 30AVG
    upload_2023-10-28_13-4-48.png

    90db SINAD vs 115db SINAD amp makes no difference at the headphone.
    Beware of false prophets!
     
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  11. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    Fire ants? I'd much prefer four, thank you very much!

    Maybe we need to look at the burst response. If that feedback loop can catch back EM, then we should see extra damping. With that said - the effect should be visible on the AFR with less resonant peaks.
     
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  12. mediumroast

    mediumroast Friend

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    I forgot to mention. The square wave analysis of Sigma Delta vs R2R Multibit (years back) was quite revealing and I was surprised to see the actual difference revaled in the measurements. It is quite apparent when listening to the systems. So good job for pulling that off!
     
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  13. mediumroast

    mediumroast Friend

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    Good point. Its important to bring it out. For me, intuitively, it felt like the SINADs & THD were like "dust in the wind" that does not matter.

    Since I am not at it everyday, I am asking, what are the most important measurements really?

    Based on my understanding, its about the power supplies, resistors (they actually matter as per specialists), capacitors and the main part, transistors and tubes. As you said, all that matters is how well the current & voltage drive the transducer.

    My lucky guess is that the tube amps have the luxury of conducting the signal through air, which gives it fluidity, less random noise, since transistors conduct through semiconductor. That's just a lucky guess. The top of the line trans amps are said to be exactly as fluid as the good tube amps, so this comparsion falls off at some point.
     
  14. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

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    With all due respect, you're off in the weeds with your understanding of how electronics work. Educate yourself - until then, don't worry about measurements. Use your ears.

    And anyway, the measurements that *matter* are not yet well understood and nobody is publishing them.
     
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  15. cameng318

    cameng318 Friend

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    Just a guess, the Halo topology might be similar to the mixed mode feedback covered in this article. Technically the headphone is in the feedback loop, but it's not as "error correction" as feedforward or nested feedback or some other fancy topologies. It's more like a mid point between voltage drive amps and current drive amps.

    That said, it should still provide better channel isolation than SE amps, maybe a tad worse than a fully balanced amp. It's more like using one beefed up Magni to handle the XLR in and out than slapping 2x small Magni for XLR out, which would gimp both the SE in and SE out, be a bit noiser in XLR out, and burn 2x power. Without Halo, the Midgard would probably cost $300+ as a discrete balanced amp, pretty smart move!

    Based on this guesswork, the real comparison should be Midgard vs other balanced amps around $200, or the channel isolation between XLR out vs SE out (which I suspect is the cause of better headstage). I could totally be wrong though, this is just my best guess from what I could gather.
     
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  16. mediumroast

    mediumroast Friend

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    Weeds is a good way of putting it.

    Electronics is the guts. Components matter, of course implementation matter as much.
    Capacitor quality, resistor quality ( in crossovers for example) matter. Literally everything matters in the chain unless your on weeds.

    I don't need to know everything and its kinda obvious, that you need super expensive equipment or equipmentt that is not made yet to test these things.

    Besides showing measurements ,
    Schiits way of presenting the internals is welcome. You can look at it decide if its any good. Definitely, better than nothing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2023
  17. mediumroast

    mediumroast Friend

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    Otherwise your right. I should pick up a book on amp design.

    I know the main parts of it and I know circuits.


    I have done mesh analysis on medium size circuits (pen and paper) and designed simpler PSUs and voltage regulators via LTSpice
     
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  18. Lunk_Wray

    Lunk_Wray Obsessed with Headstage

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    Given that Modius is the obvious DAC to stack with Midgard (coz price-point and form factor), and given the consensus that the BAL out from Modius is significantly better than its SE out, can anyone comment on whether Midgard's pseudo-BAL XLR input is good enough to take advantage of that BAL goodness? Or, does Midgard's internal BAL to SE conversion hobble that difference?

    I guess impressions via any DAC known to be substantially better from BAL vs SE outs would be informative.

    TIA
     
  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Modius E balanced and SE out are more or less equivalent. Modius AKM balanced output was preferred over the SE output because the SE output of the Modius AKM sounded really phat. Modius E is a slightly better DAC anyway, unless one really loved the AKM Velvet sound.
     
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  20. Lunk_Wray

    Lunk_Wray Obsessed with Headstage

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    There are some Midgard impressions up on HF suggesting that the difference between the XLR/halo and non-halo outs is most audible on Focal HPs. I think Jason said that hypothetically the difference would be greatest on lower impedence, "floppy" drivers. I was thinking that rigid Focal diaphragms weren't floppy, but they are relatively high excursion drivers. Anyway, just posting to suggest that maybe a Focal HP would be a good candidate for measurable "halo" difference, if any.
     

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