Small active desktop comparison + need advice on passives

- meanwhile I'll make myself a pair of pc speakers from literally leftovers from another projects / trash

It will be ridiculous, probably look the part too.

Those dali menuets look nice, they aren't that oversized too either. Weird port placement so close to the connectors, probably not a problem, but still strange.

 

Ya, port placement is a bit odd, but I figure they did that as a compromise given that it was meant to be a potentially wall-mounted near field speaker.

There appears to be a few other more minor compromises they made to have it be "more suitable" for wall mounting / tight spaces... but most of it seems to be relatively easy to change or fix. And it already sounds good without any "fixes".

OTOH - I want to see your trash bin parts speakers when they're done. I've been pleasantly surprised by 2 garbage bin style builds before.

 

Update on the speakers and chain. Will probably write another update after 2-3 weeks, 2-3 months, or some other period of time. It will most likely involve a setup change or two.

From the DAC to the speakers:
After only 3 hours of listening. Per the dealer, this was a demo pair that was used for long enough that the drivers should be broken in, if I believe in such a thing (I think it does matter, most of the time). Connectors are just whatever pro-audio brand stuff I had lying around (mogami, canare, etc.). Speaker cable is OFC Mogami w/ locking banana connectors. Listening done without my sub for now.

- I can occasionally hear some of the details of the Yggdrasil A2 (that separate it from my Spring 2 or MMB1) come through in the speakers. I think it's the right DAC for me here but I can't fully describe why. I've liked the Yggdrasil A2 the few other times I've heard it in near and midfield setups up to about mid sized room listening - again, can't fully say why. Yes, it's being used with a new amp and still pretty new to me transducers, but I think most people here can still hear their DAC in the chain, at least to a degree, when things get swapped out (I was also able to reliably tell different DACs apart during an informal test with some members of the Austin crew on a completely new to me setup as well as a few other times... so even if I don't quite have words for it, point is, I at least *think* the Yggdrasil is the right DAC for me here).
OTOH, not sure if the pre or the amp is the limiting factor right now as I was able to hear a lot more detail at near field distances at the dealer with other sources that I do not like as much (and may not be at the same level of performance as the A2) "on paper".

- Piety and Vali2+ as pre-amps - I prefer the Vali2+ as a pre-amp much more here. I'm not willing to burn (even inexpensive) tubes 8-12 hours a day though, so I'll need to find something else eventually. Piety's richer, lush, and somewhat denser sound butts heads again the sort of warm dry sound with lots of separation in the colors that I like about these drivers. V2+ is more dry sounding vs the piety which IMO helps with more texture in the sound coming through. Not enough of the overtones, color, and micro-detail come through though. I'll eventually have to find or build a new pre, but I'm done spending money for now - I've spent a not small amount on other stuff too recently.

EDIT: If anyone has a pre amp recommendation, please share.
Just need 1 input, 1 output, and a volume knob. No tubes. Preferably an active pre. Under $500. 8.5x11" (piece of paper) footprint or smaller. Needs to outperform the above amps I'm already using. Not in a rush, willing to buy used or do DIY. So far the only thing I've seen pop-up on SBAF are chi-fi clones of the Pass 1.7 preamp. Not sure if I'm willing to gamble on that many inexpensive components being OK for $150 though...

- Schiit Ghorn - Have had the ghorn on and warming up for 3-4 days before this and just hooked it up earlier today after my cables / connectors arrived. It gets more than loud enough for me, but I think a lot of the micro dynamics and color that made me buy the speakers in the first place are missing with a less powerful amp. I'm probably going to try a new amp before a new pre-amp... hopefully the first stop is an Aegir... or the new Aegir 2 comes out really soon. (I could be wrong about "more power"... if someone knows better, please chime in. Anecdotally, I used 2 different amps at the dealer, and although the two amps weren't anything I consider mind blowing and they sounded different from each other, they both had more power than the ghorn and let a lot of the little details in each amp and the music come through more while also both gripping and controlling the drivers better. Same applies for other speaker setups and some more power hungry planar setups I've heard before... amps that weren't always as good on paper, but still good, were easily better in reality than a "great amp with less power" when paired with something more power hungry.)
OTOH, I do like the sound and value of the ghorn so far - better than pretty much anything else I'm aware of for $300. If running mono blocks wasn't almost the cost of an Aegir (also good value), I'd actually just mono block these and be done. May still do it since the ghorn puts out about the same heat as my piety so far vs aegir is more.

- Menuet on small isoacoustics stands - in some setups I've used (not just these recent comparisons), isoacoustics stands don't help that much, like 1-2/10. On the Vanatoo T0, it was a day and night difference, 9-10/10 (they were good without the stands already too). With these Menuets, the stands help like 4-5/10. Still worth it.

- I still think the Oberon 1 had better cohesion at nearfield distances just based on memory (it was a very easy difference to hear, even during background listening when I was talking to the people at the store) than the Menuet does. Menuet still has better technical performance. However, after listening longer, I think the cohesion issue is because it's because there's a maybe definitely a -3-5dB dip somewhere in the lower mids or upper highs that I didn't initially catch when demoing in the store. Maybe around (Now 80% sure it's) around 150-400Hz although this is (still) just a guess by ear, not measuring and calibrating with a microphone or anything. Also, it sounds like there is a slight dip (less than the first dip, maybe only -1.5-3dB) between 10-12k (edit: 80% sure of as I heard it in cymbals), and maybe a small 1-2dB drop-off after 15 or 16k (or maybe it's just soft dome tweeters want more power to create a proper sense of air / space that these aren't doing as well now but did when I demo'd...). will probably mess around with some free dsp program later to see how it sounds.
- Modern bass still lacks the umph, presence, and authority that it needs as posted in the initial impressions.
- Even with my complaining about whatever above, I'm still really liking the wood woofers with whatever soft dome tweeters they use. Yes, the soft dome still sounds a little slow sometimes, ringing and cymbals can definitely be more clear, but I have heard very few soft domes in speakers under $2k-2500 that I don't think the same thing about.
- Still happy with these and I think they have potential to get to where I'd be even happier ... just need some tweaking to my setup to get there.

 

Low-efficiency speakers do seem to prefer a bit of power to bring out the micro. Poor micro, poor macro, lack of body, strained sound and smallish presentation are some of the common symptoms I have observed when trying to drive low-efficiency speakers with low power amps.

Another culprit might be the Vali 2+, it may be killing some of the micro. Trying a good passive preamp would reveal how much micro you are giving up with the Vali. Many of us have moved on to AVC passive pre. If you like the extra oomph of active preamps, but don't want to sacrifice micro, some of my friends (@AdvanTech, @Ishcabible, @el Chefe) are using DHT based preamps and they love what the DHT pres bring to the table, but I doubt you could get a good one for under $500.

You could also talk to @Jonah regarding tube preamps.

 

You're right. Probably need to go passive and TVC or AVC passive pre for <$500. I think I need to double check the gain and impedances (of upstream and downstream components) after I settle on an amp - anything else I need to be aware of?

 

if you just want to compare passive to what you're using now, the sys is a pretty cheap comparison that has a reputation for being transparent. I've had a couple in the past and they worked well for me (in headphone setup). When I get a preamp for speakers I'll be looking for a remote, so in that case the sys is out of contention.

 

You could always go to Scamazon for a JBL Nanopatch wtth correct cables and compare to Vali, then return if you don't like it.

EDIT: Not available there anymore, but a few cheap on ebay.

 

I bought this knockoff of the JBL nanopatch. seems to work fine; though, I've never used the nanopatch, so I don't know if there are any specific differences.

Amazon.com: DYNASTY PROAUDIO PMC-1 Premium Passive Stereo Monitor Volume Controller With Large Volume Knob For Extremely Precise Level Adjustments : Musical Instruments

 

Here’s another recommendation for the Schiit Sys. I used one in a desktop setup running powered speakers from a Yggdrasil for years and it worked and sounded great. From memory it was more transparent than the preouts on the Mjolnir 2 I was using at the time. It’s hard to go wrong for $50, and at that price it’s just a handy versatile device to have around even if you upgrade to something else.

If you need active or remote control, a used saga s might fit the bill as well.

 

You mentioned build, so maybe the PASS DIY WHAMMY, $299? Warmish, but might give you the drier/less dense character you're after vs Piety (idk Piety but it's certainly less dense than Jot 2) and you could fine-tune with cheap opamp experiments. It'd fit your size requirements too, and as a bonus you'd get an extra headamp.

If you don't want to build, here's an assembled one asking $399. The builder hasn't wired the pre-outs on this one, though, so you'd have to do that at least.

 

As others have said, if you want to just have something decent and single-ended, SYS is pretty good. Used Saga S if you need something active. Otherwise it will be hard to beat those for low cost options unless you can find DIY like you mentioned.

 

Thanks everyone.

Sounds like sys, for $50, is good and cheap enough to gamble on. Even if I don't use it daily... worth having.

If that doesn't work, the Pass DIY WHAMMY looks like a good option. Haven't built anything in a little bit, will be nice to do so again. I even see a few minor mods I'd make already... Looks like I'm going to have to do some digging w/ regards to what op amps, transistors, and a possible transformer swap out to reduce warmth a little bit? (Initial guess is maybe Cinemag as just about every Cinemag I've heard before has sonic traits that don't sound like, but I think will work, for these speakers.).

 

Probably the last update for a while:

I didn't know what amp to use for these speakers. The ghorn didn't leave enough headroom and I didn't particularly like the synergy with a single aegir in addition to I still think it needed a little bit more headroom. Maybe monoblocks or monoblock aegir 2's would have worked but at the time I got these only the final sale aegir 1 were available with no returns on 2 amps if I didn't like them.

I tried a few other amps as well here and there but didn't particularly like the synergy between amp / speakers. I did hear a tube hybrid I liked but I don't want to burn tubes for everyday general usage.

Then a killed deal on a Marantz 7000n popped up. I originally heard the speakers at the dealer with a Marantz 50 amp (amongst other stuff) and never having been a modern Marantz fan, I was very pleasantly surprised with how well the two paired together. (To clarify, this is the Marantz 50 integrated amp, not the Marantz 50 AV receiver). I didn't think the amp offered good value for my use case (or TBH most of us) at all though so I passed on it. Then I saw the 7000n and saw that it was similar in spec and appeared to have a similar internal build + components, but just had a little less power and less "extra features" that I would never use compared to the 50. These features seemed to be where much of the cost increase was in the 50 over the 7000 so I decided to gamble on it. Paid off. Numbers not firm because original showroom conditions vs at home listening, but the 7000 seems to be about 95-98% of the performance of the 50 in my use case. Only complaint is it's physically bigger than what I originally wanted, but not by too much and the price was low enough that I can overlook this.