USB Nervosa Thread Decrapifiers, pro interfaces, and bears oh my

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by zerodeefex, Sep 28, 2015.

  1. The Alchemist

    The Alchemist MOT: Schiit - Here to help!

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,378
    Dislikes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The SchiitR
    Home Page:
    It is a sample unit. There are conditions that I won't go into here that I agreed to. It is a review unit for SBAF. I do not consider it a review unit for me personally. That's all I can say for now.
     
  2. The Alchemist

    The Alchemist MOT: Schiit - Here to help!

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,378
    Dislikes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The SchiitR
    Home Page:
    Lol. No probably not tomorrow. There are several tests I need to do. For example exact transfer rates, ground loops, Isolation withstands, rail isolation, linear regulation, etc. So probably day after tomorrow :p J/k
     
  3. mtoc

    mtoc SBAF's Resident Shit-Stirrer

    Banned
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2015
    Likes Received:
    85
    Dislikes Received:
    85
    Trophy Points:
    28
    My bad. They could tracked our ISPs I've heard. (Someone receives warning from grabbing HBO shows.)
     
  4. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

    Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    4,168
    Dislikes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Winnipeg
  5. a44100Hz

    a44100Hz Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,233
    Dislikes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    US East
    This is my first time hearing about these things. I believe they are for USB powered devices only, yes? If my DAC has an external power supply than something like the Wyrd is superfluous at best?
     
  6. Madaboutaudio

    Madaboutaudio Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    578
    Dislikes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Singapore
    This USB 2.0 Isolator product is available for purchase now:
    http://intona.eu/en/products

    CA thread on the product:
    http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f...puters-and-electronic-devices-isolator-26815/


    Quote from the CA thread: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f...electronic-devices-isolator-26815/#post493372
     
  7. JoshMorr

    JoshMorr Friend

    Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,137
    Dislikes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Portland, ME
    This is not just for USB powered devices. Many people use she schiit wyrd on their Gungnir Multibit or similar dacs. Supposed to clean the USB signal from the source ( computer).
     
  8. Madaboutaudio

    Madaboutaudio Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    578
    Dislikes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Singapore
    Today I decided to experiment with switching cabling order around on my setup.

    Previous setup:
    PPA USB v2 > Corning Optical USB 3.0 Cable > Wyrd > Belkin Gold USB 2.0 Cable > Yggdrasil

    New Setup:
    PPA USB v2 > Belkin Gold USB 2.0 Cable > Wyrd > Corning Optical USB 3.0 Cable > Yggdrasil

    Oh boy. Now things sounded much better.
    Improvement in focus/imaging of music notes in the soundstage.
    Sound stage depth seems more deeper than ever. Guitar notes now have even more spacial reverberation.
    Especially during quiescent passages of music, seems that more plankton details is seeping through in layers of detail.

    Software:
    Musicbee 2.5
    Cmedia ASIO set to 24bit 10ms Latency
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
  9. JoshMorr

    JoshMorr Friend

    Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,137
    Dislikes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Portland, ME
    Why would it matter which USB cable was where in the chain? Isn't everything before the wyrd "dirty", and everything after "cleaned up"? Legit question, as I just purchased a wyrd and planned on fairly standard usb cables.

    I can understand digital 1's and 0's being cut out, potential packets being lost, but your description sounds awfully audiophile-y to me. I thought it has been more or less proven here a couple of times that cables do not make a significant difference.
     
  10. trung225

    trung225 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2015
    Likes Received:
    151
    Dislikes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I think Madaboutaudio's observation can be explained by something Alex from Uptone Regen had told before. Actually, after Wyrd, the signal has been cleaned up, but it can be tamed again by the USB cable. Probably, the Corning Optical cable is really better than Belkin Gold cable, so placing the Corning cable after the Wyrd will transmit "cleaner" data to DAC.
    From my experience, the USB decraptifiers (like asynchronus USB protocol before) do not kill the need of "audiophile" USB cable, but rather reduce the distance between one "so-so" USB cable and the truly "great" one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
  11. SSL

    SSL Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,179
    Dislikes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    93
    If that's the case, surely an ultra-short cable would make the most sense:

    http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-Components-Device-Daisy-Chain/dp/B000067RMY

    With something fully shielded for the PC-Wyrd connection:

    http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Hi-Speed-Ferrite-U023-006/dp/B003MQ29B2

    This stuff is not magic. Either cables make no difference or they do, at which point it seems that a decent short cable ought to trump an "audiophile" cable at a standard length.
     
  12. Madaboutaudio

    Madaboutaudio Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    578
    Dislikes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Singapore
    I am also not sure why the order affects things but here's what I have gathered so far on why the Corning is quite a unique product from any other specialised audiophile usb cable with fancy shielding.

    The Corning optical usb cables works differently from a Normal copper wire usb cable.

    Any Normal or audiophile usb cable carries power and data transmission on 4 seperate copper wires.

    Corning usb uses 2 copper wires for power and 2 optical glass strains for data transmission.

    How it works is that at the input plug of the optical usb cable, data transmission portion is first converted from electrical signal to light signal and transmitted over to the output end of the usb plug.

    Unlike Regular usb cables, this light signal does not suffer from Long distance signal degradation or any kind of emi/rfi interferences thus this Corning cable can be up to 100metres Long.

    The light signal is then converted back to electrical signal at the very end of the output plug of the usb cable by a semiconductor chip. This method of conversion means the signal sent via this method will have less wire transmission incurred jitter since the signal is reconstructed at semiconductor chip located at the output plug

    From what I have read, the cable is NOT considered as providing full galvanic isolation, however it is possible to use ferrite core choke and not affect the transmission speed and still provide a level of rfi/emi reduction on the power wiring portion of the cable.

    The downside of this Corning is it doesn't deliver as much power on its copper wires as it already draws power for its semiconductor chips located inside. Some usb dacs that are usb powered might not work
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
  13. SSL

    SSL Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,179
    Dislikes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Just seems like it would be well established over what distances signal smearing and jitter begin to emerge in a standard USB 2.0 cable. While I don't doubt that this technology technically does what is says, I was under the impression that any supposed benefits of Wyrd were not within the realm of measurable performance. Thus, the name of the product (weird).
     
  14. JoshMorr

    JoshMorr Friend

    Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,137
    Dislikes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Portland, ME
    I've always wondered why some audiophiles insist that their expensive cables perform differently than everything else on the market, while most hobbiests that have been around for a while don't even discuss the topic. How many rca cable comparisons do we have at sbaf? Why does schiit sell a $20 cable when they could likely have higher margins on $50 or $100 cables?
     
  15. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,419
    Dislikes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Laguna Hills, CA
    Home Page:
    Let's not derail too far into cable talk.

    I still use a Regen at work because it makes objective improvements (no dropouts) vs. not using it. I use a hard connection/adapter as UpTone recommends. Haven't noticed differences between AudioQuest Cinnamon, Schiit Pyst, and Belkin Gold going into it.

    I sold my Wyrd because it actually made connecting to my DAC even less reliable than it was.

    Those are the only two I've used.
     
    Changeling and Madaboutaudio like this.
  16. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

    Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    4,168
    Dislikes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Winnipeg
    Why the farquaad would I use a usb cable that inserts two conversion processes into the chain and further pollutes my 5V power lines to feed said converters?
     
    Judeus likes this.
  17. The Alchemist

    The Alchemist MOT: Schiit - Here to help!

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,378
    Dislikes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The SchiitR
    Home Page:
    usb_hispeed_isolator_1.jpg


    Intona USB 2.0 High-Speed Isolator Impressions.

    The Intona USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator is designed to be capable of transmitting USB Hi-Speed (480 MBit/s) while providing full galvanic isolation of both the data and the power lines.

    From Intona:

    "This product is an ideal solution to break ground loops, avoid noise coupling and protect ports from power surges and voltage spikes in applications which require high speed USB transfers. The galvanic isolation barrier withstands potential difference up to 2500VRMS."

    "The intended purpose is complete isolation of both data and power lines. Resulting sound quality improvement is the effect of breaking all the noise coming from the host computer."



    Features

    Provides galvanic isolation to the USB bus
    Compliant to USB 2.0 Hi-Speed (480 MBit/s)
    Backwards compatible to Full Speed and Low Speed
    Isolation withstands up to 2.5kVRMS
    Advanced ESD protection (15kV IEC Air-gap Discharge)
    Works out of the box, no drivers needed
    Transparent to host and device: wide compatibility to all operating systems, embedded systems and devices
    Works also with hubs and extenders
    Supports all USB-specific transfers and modes
    No additional round-trip latency
    Powered by USB bus, no separate power supply
    Ultra-quiet power rail isolation, linear regulation
    300mA nominal (500mA max.) output current on isolated side
    Connectors: host-side USB-B; device-side USB-A
    Status LED for each port showing bus state and speed
    Impedance controlled high-speed circuit design
    National compliance's: FCC, CE, RCM, ICES-003
    IP 54 ABS housing
    Dimensions: 105 x 76 x 36 mm
    Engineered and manufactured in Germany

    Applications

    Industrial automation systems
    Measurement devices
    Environments requiring safety insulation
    Machine protection
    Broadcast and Studio
    All applications requiring clean and stable USB connections with separate grounds

    Intona Table.jpg

    Now for my personal impressions (Using the Intona USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator (industrial Version):


    I connected the Intona USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator in my signal chain at the very end (Closest to my host). My setup with the Intona USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator is as follows from Host to Headphones:

    PC (Using JRiver MC21)->Intona USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator->Bifrost (via USB)/ Gungnir Multibit via USB (when I had the loaner)->Schitt Valhalla 2-> Sennheiser HD800 (Z28 Mod).

    I use the Intona USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator first in the signal chain directly after the host (PC) so that the entire USB signal from PC to DAC and back where utilizing the full capabilities of the Intona USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator and that each USB communication ran directly through the Intona USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator.

    Before going into the specifics of what this amazing device has done for my personal setup, let me discuss a little about the product itself. The Intona USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator is extremely light in weight, and makes a small footprint. Another amazing thing about the Intona USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator is that it needs no external power supply! The Unit is powered by USB bus - I really like this feature.

    The Intona USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator also features a status LED for each port showing bus state and speed - I found this to be very useful as I have a visual indicator that the transfer rates through the Intona USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator are working properly and it also indicates the speed of the transfers by the frequency of how slow or fast the LED blinks.

    And now for what it has done for my personal setup:

    As shown above, I use Jriver MC21 as my primary music software and I use AISO for playback. Before the Intona USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator, I had to set the buffer size in JRiver to 50ms to prevent jitter and the occasional stutter, short, silent gaps in audio playback, and even occasionally JRiver freezing up completely.

    Once I added the Intona USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator to my setup, amazingly, I was able to set my AISO latency all the way down from 50ms to a 2ms bufer - a dramatic increase in USB transfer speed. I have noticed that I no longer have the issues explained above, even at such a low buffer. Since the Intona USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator was added to my setup, I have not once experienced latency, stuttering in audio, ocassional silence in audio during playback (like the data was trying to catch up), I have not experience my JRiver Software freeze or crash even once.

    Another amazing feature of the Intona USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator is that it did not introduce noise into the signal chain, none that I could measure anyway, on either DAC that I used.

    According to Intona:

    "There is absolutely no contact with any computer signal.
    As there is 1. a complete new and absolutely silent ground and 2. all power regulators are linear, there is no common noise coming from the isolator. All common noise from the computer is being ripped by the isolation barrier.

    All transceiver and hub chips have their own PLLs inside and they all rely on internal RC oscillators to derive the bit clock. We didn't see any change on eye diagrams of the USB bus whether the transceivers where clocked with +-500ps Jittter or +-5ps Jitter on our LeCroy SDA. Anyway, we took special attention to all design aspects and price economy was never a subject."


    As described in the features above, it is fully compliant to USB 2.0 Hi-Speed (480 MBit/s), Backwards compatible to Full Speed and Low Speed, Works with hubs and extenders (I did not need to use I hub in my setup), No additional round-trip latency (none that I noticed anyway, and it proved to me that it was extremely fast at transfer rates), Ultra-quiet power rail isolation, linear regulation (thus I did not hear any noise in the signal chain), and the Intona USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator didn't just improve my latency that I was experiencing between my Host and DAC, but it improved it dramatically.

    So I guess the question is, is it necessary to have this in your audio setup? Well I guess that is up to debate. However, if you experience any type of USB latency between your host and your DAC, experience USB noise or any other USB audio gear this may well be the solution. I will say that personally, I think very highly of this product and without a doubt it significantly increased my USB transfer speeds by a significant amount and remedied all of my latency issues between my host computer software and my USB DAC (I also tried this on a few other USB devices such as my Keyboard MIDI controller, which I was able to significantly reduce latency, to the point there was virtually no human detectable delay between a keystroke and sound, which I have never experienced before with my current DAW and midi setup). Another important aspect of the product I noticed is that it didn't require a break-in period in my case - it worked right out of the box as intended.

    In conclusion the Intona USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator, in my opinion is an excellent option for anyone experiencing latency issues with USB (not only with audio gear, but virtually any USB device) and should be considered as a very good option if you experience any of these issues.

    Output Voltage Noise.jpg

    For more information please visit Intona's Website:

    http://intona.eu/en/products
     
    Changeling, Tuco1965, Thujone and 6 others like this.
  18. Madaboutaudio

    Madaboutaudio Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    578
    Dislikes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Singapore
    I think it will be interesting to compare the intona to the uptone regen, schiit wyrd and the ifi iusb 3.0
     
  19. rott

    rott Secretly hates other millenials - Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Likes Received:
    764
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Nation's Capital of failure
    So did it enhance the sonic performance of the DACs you used it with, apart from fixing whatever specific issues you experienced without it?

    This is marketed differently than the Regen and iFi solutions, and of course Schiit makes no specific claims about the Wyrd.
     
  20. rott

    rott Secretly hates other millenials - Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Likes Received:
    764
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Nation's Capital of failure
    @The Alchemist - btw I've been listening to a lot of older Dream Theater as I've been comparing sound quality of Gungnir Multibit's different inputs (Score DVD and Live at Budokan Blu-ray, LPCM of course).

    Sucks to see Regen availability pushed back to mid-February as of this week.
     
    The Alchemist likes this.

Share This Page