Line between having an open mind vs being objective(basing on your current knowledge)

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by Madaboutaudio, Sep 19, 2016.

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  1. cizx

    cizx Friend

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    I was glad to see her on Dexter. But, I didn't have enough time with her on TNG to miss her. I was in Jr. High back then anyway.

    @MuppetFace what kind? Thyroid here. 4 years in remission. I consider it cured.
     
  2. MuppetFace

    MuppetFace Sultana of Seafoam Green - Moderator

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    Primarily in the left cheek and along a nerve going into my left jaw. Stage 3 IIRC. There were two smaller areas on my tongue and right cheek. Not caused by this thread mind you. Likely caused by my then-current Crohn's Disease medication (Humira).

    It was just over a year ago that I had reconstructive surgery, followed by a few months of chemo and radiation. I get scanned every few months at this point to make sure things are alright. Next scan is coming up in October, then I think they drop it back to a couple a year for a while.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016
  3. cizx

    cizx Friend

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    Yeah my scans are yearly.. if everything's good next summer, I'm on bi-yearly.
    Overall, I got off light.

    I only had surgery and a radioactive iodine pill. Yours sounds WAY more traumatic. Continued good luck!
     
  4. castleofargh

    castleofargh Acquaintance

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    appreciations are feelings and emotions, that's everything and nothing, we'd die for that etc. but it doesn't necessarily rely on facts and is not proof of anything aside from being alive. today I listen to that song, I feel good, in 3 months maybe when I'll listen to it for the hundredth time I'll feel disgusted, or maybe I'll notice something, a saturation in the voice some clipping, whatever to make me see it in a new day. but it's the same music with the same objective qualities. there is no problem as long as people can keep in mind that how they feel is not necessarily reality. but when someone actively decides to rely only on his impressions and come to the web to tell us how a device "is" instead of saying how it felt, that's not sharing impressions, that's delusion. and that will fool many readers who will take any claim at face value.
    so how to get fooled less?(OP's question) stop letting anybody BS his way on a forum and pretend to know everything when he doesn't have a single verifiable data. it's all in the way to say it. feelings are good, but feelings are not facts and must not mascarade as facts.
    that will not happen of course, so skepticism and asking for evidence is the logical answer for the reader to an already existing problem.


    maybe things would be clearer if from the start people had argued about passion vs reason, instead of subjective vs objective. because somewhere down the processing chain of information, everything is interfaced with a human, his senses, and interpreted by the brain. we're all different, so why not say that all is subjective, always, and be done with it? it's not false, in fact it's the main reason why it's so hard to be sure of anything in this world.
    to me objective data is obtained through attempts at applying the scientific method, so I must say I have a hard time separating both. and I'm not sure I get your point about observation. we can get objective data out of subjects/samples and observation. in fact do we ever do something else? all we have to do to make it objective/factual is follow the scientific method to control the test , check repeatability and stuff like that.
     
  5. Case

    Case Anxious Head (Formerly Wilson)

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    My wife is a cancer survivor...good health and peace to you both
     
  6. Divad al-Rahsir

    Divad al-Rahsir Facebook Friend

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    This one seems to be going cattywampus, but that happens. I suppose that the moral of the story is to hear what you need to hear.
     
  7. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    This may sound a bit discomforting, but I don't think there is anything "sure" in this world.

    Also, "objective" data is not obtained through attempts at applying the scientific method. We just get data. It's up to the scientist to interpret the data and to expose his/her rationale as to how the data supports his/her claims. The data may not be repeatable. In fact, it may be hard to prove it is or it is not repeatable. Assumptions usually need to be made, whose support in many cases is not rigorous.

    As far as observation, it's human. It's flawed. And it's flexible.

    One of the most important disciplines that an engineer should master is probability. Much our understanding of the world is based on probability. There is little to no certainty. And it's beautiful. It's amazing how the Gaussian curve repeats itself perhaps due to the central limit theorem. The beauty of the uncertainty principle is present many times as we go from one domain to another (and not just time and frequency). How shaky the basic foundations of Math itself can be depending on what you take for granted and what you don't. We could go on and on.

    Now how all of this applies to audio evaluation? Well, for one forget about this "feelings" and "objective data" bullshit.

    Instead, I would think about when do we determine if a THD number is good or bad? How we came up with the threshold? What does it mean in terms of audio appreciation? How do we come up with what is good value for your money and what is not? What frequency response signature is the most compatible with most of the audio content available? How are different aspects/issues of the audio reproduction chain affect overall perceived performance?

    We maybe lost in semantics here, but I feel you are searching for certainty in data, when there is not as much of it as you may (or may not) think.

    BTW, there is a 15.29122582338% chance you may get this.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016
  8. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    LOL! all of this is just noise.

    @castleofargh, I think we would be using our time much better listening to music, and discussing what gear we like and why (based on data even if you like), than discussing the philosophy of "objectivity".

    Maybe characterize/evaluate something or such. Post a joke in the appropriate thread. Take a picture of your audio gear and show it to folks, see how many Guravchlorians we can sense. Stuff like that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    SuperBAF: "Too passionate for the passionately reasoned. Too reasoned for for the unreasonably passionate."

    Keep it up. Black gooey ooze bubbling up pretty good. Can't we have these discussions in the sound science forum?
     
  10. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    You've been here less than a month yet you're clogging up the forum with your long winded attempts to wax idiotic. Seriously, in 29 posts you've managed to wildly f**k up our signal to noise ratio.

    This isn't castleofargh.blogspot.com. If you want to stick around, learn more about this place before posting wall_of_text.txt.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016
  11. Deep Funk

    Deep Funk Deep thoughts - Friend

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    You mean digging with a spade?

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Madaboutaudio

    Madaboutaudio Friend

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    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  13. sorrodje

    sorrodje Carla Bruni's other lover - Friend

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    @castleofargh posted very few posts ( 29 in one month !!) ...Please, give me break... I don't see where's the blogspot is and if I agree with you with the serious drop in SNR , I don't think @castleofargh is the worst contributor to noise and shitloads of crappy uneseful threads/ posts I discover each morning when I drink my f'ing coffee.

    Dunno where the rant come from and trust me, I don't agree with all @castleofargh has to tell ( and I know first hand how he can behave as an asshole) but I appreciate to read different opinions here even if I strongly disagree. if we disagree, it's easy to do what Ultrabike did and argue. Facebook friends can give dislike or like as well or whatever.

    I don't understand the special treatment here....
     
  14. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    I've gotten four PMs, three people on the discord complaining to me directly, and an email about it. It's the most complaints about a single new user I've gotten ever. I don't have time to police the forum so I don't have time to look for the problem cases.

    I want us to have differing opinions on the forum. That's the point of this place, to look at all the different sides of the hobby to see what we can learn. The primary intent of my posting was to cut down on long, drawn out posts which are 90% "I AM SO SMART, S M R T" and 10% perspective. That 10% loses value and the message is lost if it can't be delivered concisely.
     
  15. sorrodje

    sorrodje Carla Bruni's other lover - Friend

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    Jeez.... MP to the Staff to complain. Great from "friends" ....
     
  16. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Sheesh, people are so small-minded that they did that?

    Sorry... the same four people are now writing to you about me! You can guess my recommended response!

    I've seen a guy carpet-bomb a very subjective forum with "objectivism." All good points. All stuff that I more-or-less agreed with. However the approach, in that place, was stupid. That kind of carpet-bombing does not win forum threads, let alone minds. One post a month might have made some progress. I don't see carpet bombing.
     
  17. castleofargh

    castleofargh Acquaintance

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    nothing in my messages is about certainty, I insist on trying to fool ourselves(and others) less by using the basics of a method that is in nature open and iterative. which again was simply giving my own answer on OP's topic. don't know where you would get the idea that I expect to hold truth or certainty in my hands?


    I happen to enjoy both. having a blast with "my" music is one thing. my interest in how gears and people work is another one(or 2?) and it's not limited to audio, I'm just a curious guy. to use an analogy that will annoy somebody, I can enjoy driving a car and be interested in mechanic. the argument to stop one and just enjoy the other is a bit strange if it doesn't come from myself.

    anyway I don't think people will let me be, or that I'll insist much. it's not been a lot of fun for me in here since I joined and I'm not mother Theresa. apparently me trying to argument my opinion using many words instead of force feeding concepts and justify them with "trust me I'm very good at whatever", is the major problem in this topic. not cancer jokes, not people who can't take the joke, not #mylife, not religious stuff, not trolls, not the one who feels attacked and tries to justify that he likes music out of nowhere in an audio forum. no, the main problem that made people complain in the topic is the guy advocating that the scientific method is good to fool ourselves less on a topic asking how to fool ourselves less... common sense left a while ago and I'm on the wrong side of the Spanish inquisition. I hoped to find a good place, I've found that even modos enjoy a good hate speech here and there, that people hold grudges and that apparently some can't even pretend to be righteous openly.
    but thank you @ultrabike for being as always, the cool headed guy of the group and trying to discuss specific points instead of whining without focus. u da man!

    @sorrodje thanks but don't go attracting the hate of irrational people for my sake. there is clearly nothing to gain.
     
  18. sorrodje

    sorrodje Carla Bruni's other lover - Friend

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    I honestly don't care if people hates you and your opinions :). I just hate unfair treatments.
     
  19. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    You're missing the point. @sorrodje could do anything he damn well pleased. He's been on the forum for a long time, contributed positively, and understands this place quite well. If he chose, he could be a hugely pompous dill weed and no one would blink. He could jump into pretty much any thread he chose and act contrary just to be contrary. Some folks would whine but I doubt I'd get direct complaints to my inbox.

    The warning you received is just to let you know to slow your roll. Feel free to disagree with whoever you want, just try to get the lay of the land and understand this place a bit more before going all in.
     
  20. cizx

    cizx Friend

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    [​IMG]
    is how I would have phrased it. But I'm tactless.
     
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