Audio Science Review Review

Discussion in 'Audio Science' started by purr1n, Aug 30, 2020.

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  1. batriq

    batriq Probably has made you smarter

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  2. Beefy

    Beefy Almost "Made"

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  3. Woland

    Woland Friend

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    So I'm curious about the North American perspective...

    When you read 'objectivist' on ASR, do you think of an aspiration to be 'objective' / 'realist' as a contrast to subjective, or do you think of the Ayn Rand scribbles aka 'objectivism'?

    Since the latter is pretty much unknown/ridiculed outside the US, I think most of the world interprets 'objectivist' as the former. But ASR doesn't do much in the way of 'objective'/'realist', of course... it's bizarrely subjective chosen and poorly performed measurements followed by rants. Maybe if you assume the second interpretation, it makes sense somehow...
     
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  4. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    I think that the international audio world has its own definitions of objective/subjective, and both contain large amounts of straw.
     
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  5. AllanMarcus

    AllanMarcus Friend

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    I saw that at a presentation at Burning Amp 2021. The first day of talks devoted to measurements. The first speaker was boring as hell to me (Steven Dear), but other two (Demian Martin and Andrew Jones) where good. Demian's point for the slide below is that measurements can't tell the whole story, and one should stay out of the weeds of levels too imperceptible to the human ear. There's some useful on ASR, but most of it is in the weeds.

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. BarnBurner

    BarnBurner Acquaintance

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    Very well stated, I've contemplated that as well. Might be the wiff of technocratic fascism bubbling under both.
     
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  7. winders

    winders Know-it-all boomer, prob racist

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    The point of the article I posted isn't that their methodology was bad. The point was the Dunning-Kruger Effect was not actually real. Just because you observe that some idiots don't know they are idiots does not mean the Dunning-Kruger Effect is real. Just because you think you feel centrifugal force when you are on a roller coaster does not mean it is a real force.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
  8. Beefy

    Beefy Almost "Made"

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    Yeah, so I'll reiterate. Dunning Kruger is just a name for the overconfidence that sometimes accompanies unconscious incompetence.

    So sure, it may not be a uniformly applicable population-level effect. But anyone who argues that individuals who express this particular trait don't exist? Well that's just bullshit, because I've met plenty.
     
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  9. Lyander

    Lyander Too sensitive for SBAF

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    I had to refresh my memory here but while centrifugal force is merely an "apparent force" borne of inertia acting upon matter that doesn't mean that it isn't "real" in the sense that it has no effect

    [​IMG]

    As to whether the Dunning-Kruger Effect is real or not in an empirical sense as opposed to a colloquial one (where it's all too sadly prevalent): while the above link does show that it is in a sense mere regression to mean (common to any complex structures in psychology thereby making for poorly repeatable research-- sigh) the fact remains that there are those data points that show individuals exist who grossly overestimate their actual performance that shows some degree of correlation with lack of knowledge therewith.

    EDIT: for the nth time I need to learn brevity so posts don't turn out redundant LMAO
     
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  10. Beefy

    Beefy Almost "Made"

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    Yeah, centrifugal force is a great way to describe the inertia felt by someone in a centrifuge, even if it is not a real force.

    But centrifugal force is actually real, for observers in a rotating frame of reference. There's an XKCD for it and everything.
     
  11. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

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    The Burning Amp presenters today pissed all over ASR's entire existence. Not by calling them out or anything like that but by showing what science is. Andrew Jones' delve into speaker measurements was killer.
     
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  12. winders

    winders Know-it-all boomer, prob racist

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    Wow. That's make it real? No, it does not. What observers in the rotating frame of reference think is centrifugal force is actually inertia and centripetal force. Centrifugal force does not obey Newtons 3rd law so it is indeed fictitious.
     
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  13. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    The last few posts illustrate the Dunning-Coriolis Effect: we know a discussion will go sideways, but we must recognize that local conditions should preclude us from being dogmatic about predicting the direction.

    (The Coriolis 'force' isn't 'real' either, but I hope never to be in the position to have to explain that to a hurricane).
     
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  14. winders

    winders Know-it-all boomer, prob racist

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    https://courses.lumenlearning.com/p...s-and-non-inertial-frames-the-coriolis-force/

    To quote (emphasis is mine):

    "The rotation of tropical cyclones and the path of a ball on a merry-go-round can just as well be explained by inertia and the rotation of the system underneath. When non-inertial frames are used, fictitious forces, such as the Coriolis force, must be invented to explain the curved path. There is no identifiable physical source for these fictitious forces. In an inertial frame, inertia explains the path, and no force is found to be without an identifiable source. Either view allows us to describe nature, but a view in an inertial frame is the simplest and truest, in the sense that all forces have real origins and explanations."
     
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  15. Beefy

    Beefy Almost "Made"

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    Nuh uh. It is a real force. I am very confident in my answer.
     
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  16. Tachikoma

    Tachikoma Almost "Made"

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    The point of that article is that the Dunning-Kruger Effect is not generally applicable (we'd be calling it Dunning-Kruger Law otherwise), not that it does not exist on the individual level.

    Anyway, I see a layperson trying to explain science to two PhD holders, including a tenured professor, so...
     
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  17. winders

    winders Know-it-all boomer, prob racist

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    When I worked at UCLA in the mid 1980's, I ran the computer store on campus. We sold computers to faculty, staff, and students. As the person in charge, I had to work with the bigger names on campus. I worked with this one big name tenured professor with three doctorates on some problem he was having with database files on one of his 5 1/4" floppy disks. I asked him to send me a copy of the disk via inter-campus mail so I could examine the data and see if I could find the error. A day later I received an inter-campus envelope from the professor. When I opened it, there was a photocopy of the floppy disk. I thought it was a joke. Sadly, I was wrong.

    That was the most extreme example of otherwise brilliant people having bouts of stupidity, but, not the only one. This illustrates that even PhD holders can be stupid. When I was working at Apple in the late 80's and 90's, I would come across many people on the software engineering side that had masters degrees in computer science that were completely useless. 8 out of 10 of the most talented software engineers I worked with at Apple did not have college degrees.

    My point? A degree, even an advanced degree, is no guarantee of competence. All it really means is that you have what it takes to pass the classes and write the papers necessary to get college degrees. What really matters, it what you can do with the knowledge you have, however you got it.
     
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  18. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    I am not medically, qualified, so this is probably illegal. Anyway, here is a prescription...

    R/
    @winders.

    1. Read paper by Messrs Dunning and Kruger

    2. Introspect.

    3. Observe others.

    If symptoms still persist after 7 days,

    4. Drive a high-sided vehicle far too fast around a tight bend.​
     
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  19. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    And people often over-estimate what they can do with it.

    Dunning-Krugger. Colloquially, at least.

    Q.E.D.

    bye.
    (edit: not meant to be rude, just means enough said on this)
     
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    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
  20. Tchoupitoulas

    Tchoupitoulas Friend

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    In the context of the conversation, and given that you're responding to Tachikoma, this "point" comes across as a direct insult to the people he's referring to, hence the dislike.

    Maybe it's time to move on to other topics of conversation related to the thread.
     
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