Bookshelf / standmount speaker impressions

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by rlow, Feb 10, 2020.

  1. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Likes Received:
    7,965
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Canada
    I’ve considered some LS3/5 variations, including the P3ESR as well as the Proac Tablette 10. Bottom line with all of these however is I’m not buying any of these new, no way. IMO they are INSANELY overpriced for what they are, at least in the side of The Pond. If I can find a decent used option for a reasonable price I’ll probably give it a try. I didn’t realize the Stirling V3 was tuned by Derek Hughes - will have to watch out for one of those thx.
     
  2. PNOS1

    PNOS1 New

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2022
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Australia
    Will you still be auditioning the Elac Vela 403? I really want to hear this speaker against the LS6. I am considering both.
    One reviewer stated that 403 sounds like LS3/5a on steroids. I have my doubts but i bet that jet5 tweeter is the real deal.

    BTW a friend of mine has convinced me to try these grounding plugs on my main OB active horn speakers (see avatar).
    Certainly improved his old Rickard Allen`s. If it does something similar to the LS6 it could really be worth it.
    Link to a review below.
    https://www.av2day.com/2022/11/kojo-technology-virtual-grounding-plugs-do-they-work-on-speakers/
     
  3. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    14,574
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    India
    Reminds me of the Synergistic Latrines debacle. Pluggy things full of... sand.

    But hey, you heard a difference. Hmmm...

    :eek:
     
  4. PNOS1

    PNOS1 New

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2022
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Australia
    Suppose i should have been clearer. I have not actually heard them yet myself. I am trusting my friends opinion..
    Maybe a bit long in the tooth but he has bat`s ears. From the enthusiastic way he described the improvement on his vintage RA speakers.......... Err soo i told him to just send them interstate for me to try for myself. Before committing to any purchase.
    He wasn`t thrilled with the idea which means he really must like them lol. Told me to trust him o_O
    But hey i like trying new and unorthodox? gadgets anyway. Certain things i tried, which `certain` people said wouldn`t do jack sht ...... well..... actually ended up doing quite good sht. To the point of being indispensable. So....
    I just wish cables didn`t make such a big difference. Bank account would certainly look better.
     
  5. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    14,574
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    India
    Thanks for your reply.

    Of course, they could be god's gift to audiophiles. But the right to cynicism is reserved! And what you show there rings my Bullshit Buttons.
     
  6. LetMeBeFrank

    LetMeBeFrank Won't tell anyone my name is actually Francis

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2017
    Likes Received:
    3,777
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Jackson, Mi
    First, the amount of ads on that review page is egregious.

    Second, what exactly does "virtual ground" mean? Ground is supposed to be effectively infinite, and I don't see how a vial of sand can be considered "ground."

    Generally I'm sceptical of cables past a certain point (that point being proper gauge for the distance and material like oxygen free copper)
     
  7. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    14,574
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    India
    I've never understood what harm the oxygen is supposed to do!
     
  8. LetMeBeFrank

    LetMeBeFrank Won't tell anyone my name is actually Francis

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2017
    Likes Received:
    3,777
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Jackson, Mi
    Oxidizes the copper, and since the electrons in high frequency AC electrical signals travel on the surface of the conductor, this can have negative effects. Wether these effects are audible or not is probably up to debate.
     
  9. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    14,574
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    India
    i thought it might be something like that. But hey, surely the copper is protected by the insulation, and oxidises anyway when open to the air.

    I did read up skin effect long ago (when I enjoyed arguing this stuff ;) ) and it is very interesting. Belden make cables that are basically a thin copper plating
    on top of something to give physical strength, for frequencies so high they only travel in the skin. Not really applicable to audio. I remember it said that their skin-only cables would indeed sound horrible for hifi!
     
  10. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Likes Received:
    7,965
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Canada
    Probably not, because I’m looking for smaller nearfields now and these are a similar size to the LS6
    Not something I’m interested in sorry. If someone showed up at my house and handed them to me, sure I’d shove them on just to see what they did, but not something I would ever spend time or money trying to acquire. I believe in the difference that cables can make (at least to a point), but this type of stuff is a bridge too far for me. Not doubting your friend heard a difference, but I’m pretty skeptical of something like this providing an automatic “improvement”. Likelyhood is, it just did something that happened to tilt that particular speaker, on that particular system, in that particular room, more toward your friend’s preferences
     
  11. Garns

    Garns Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,490
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Sydney, AUS
    Before this descends into a holy war can I point out that for those who are adventurous and receptive to woo woo but don't want to drop $300 on something that doesn't appear to make any sense, the OG version of this tweak is still available at a modest price:

    http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/EVS_Ground_Enhancers.html

    As expected this generated huge amounts of debate back in the day, but at least it's super up front about what you are getting. No, I haven't tried it but I like cottage industry weirdos, indeed heaps of my chain is made by cottage industry weirdos.

    Back to speakers: @PNOS1 what's your take on the Lenehan ML1s? Which model did you have?
     
  12. ergopower

    ergopower Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Likes Received:
    828
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    South Central PA
    The lower the oxygen content, the more ductile the material. So if you're stamping or drawing copper, you want at least ETP. OFC is another decimal point lower, we used it in more intricate contact stamping.
    How it affects signal integrity at audio frequencies, I can't imagine.
     
  13. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    14,574
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    India
    Is it? Still... Manufacturer's problem. I'm certainly not going to draw it down any further so I don't care. It's also the manufacturer's problem to deliver a cable that is fit for use, eg not brittle. Whilst I do know about work hardening, annealing, drawing wire, they are not want I want to contemplate when buying cables.

    I guess... I'm feeling :oops: :oops: :oops: that this topic lapse has gone far enough.
     
  14. GuySmiley'sMonkey

    GuySmiley'sMonkey Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2022
    Likes Received:
    988
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Northern NSW, Australia
    I brought the new system home yesterday:

    ATC SCM11
    ATC C1 Sub
    ATC SIA2-100 integrated amp


    ATC Gear.JPG

    The location is only temporary and not ideal, so the experience is quite different from the audition. Things will only get better as they only have a handful of hours on them. I Increased the budget to allow for the sub (12", sealed, down-firing, 200W class AB MOSFET output), which I got for about the dealer's cost price, a mistake he made on his website that he'll rectify very soon, no doubt. The sub's serial number is 58 (manufactured Oct 2020), so I'm guessing ATC don't sell many.

    I know there aren't many of us Aussies here, but a big shout out to Terry at Gold Coast HiFi who deals in my second favorite drug: Audio equipment. No prizes for guessing my most favorite source of natural high.

    Just thought I'd pop back in to thank everyone for their advice. Very happy. If this is just ATC's entry level series I can only imagine what @Xecuter's 150s sound like.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2022
  15. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    14,574
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    India
    Congatulations! An enviable system, I'm, sure :D.

    Maybe slightly offtopic, but I'm curious to know: what is that beautiful cabinet standing on?
     
  16. GuySmiley'sMonkey

    GuySmiley'sMonkey Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2022
    Likes Received:
    988
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Northern NSW, Australia
    LOL

    We have a puppy and needed to protect our furniture from his insatiable drive to chew anything remotely chewable. I improvised an ablative layer by chopping up a yoga mat and wrapping it around the leg of the buffet with packing tape.

    More literally, it's standing on a mat I made out of left-over carpet.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2022
  17. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    14,574
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    India
    Ha Ha :D

    I was wondering: was this some audiophool isolation material? Had you gone Victorian Brit, covering up furniture legs in the name of decency?

    ;)
     
  18. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,029
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Australia

    We need some more thorough impressions when youve got it all set up in the permanent location.

    I assume Terry played it in his smaller room but he has a fair amount of treatment and very good front end gear which all helps get things singing.

    Glad you are happy mate. You've entered hifi territory now. Endless tweaks and upgrades await you!
     
  19. GuySmiley'sMonkey

    GuySmiley'sMonkey Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2022
    Likes Received:
    988
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Northern NSW, Australia

     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2022
  20. artur9

    artur9 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    186
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Got some Philharmonic BMR Monitors v2. Was asked to do an impressions by @ergopower.

    Frequency response et al measurements of the speaker are at both Audioholics (v1) and Erin's Audio Corner (v2).

    Importantly, my hearing is compromised and has been since birth. In that sense, I need to go by measurements and what sounds good to me since I've never had "normal" hearing, let alone golden hearing :)

    Fair amount of experience listening to speakers in "store settings": B&W, Trenner&Friedl, Totem, GoldenEar, Sonus Faber, Vienna Acoustics. Years ago owned B&W, 4' tall Maggies. I've owned Vienna Acoustics Haydns, own T+A TLR, Janszen za2.1, mini Maggies, B&W M2, Kali LP6, Totem Tribe II. BMRs came about because the za2.1 died ;-(

    Mostly I listen to classical and other acoustic music, early 80s rock (The Cars, Police, those bands). My daughter drags me to an opera once/twice a year and off/on we have season tickets to the local symphony. Love, love, love live unamplified music, when it can be found. My daughter is a trained singer (amateur) and was learning piano for a year on the grand in our living room as further reference points.

    Current audio chain is old MacBook USB -> Gungnir MB -> Anthem AVM 70 -> T+A Amp8. Speaker wire is by Pine Tree Audio, others are generic interconnects other than an XLR->RCA adapter to Audioquest Forest RCA from the Gungnir Multibit to the AVM. I have a turntable not at this location so all evaluations are with digital music. The Amp8 does 80/110W at 8/4 ohms.

    AVM digitization and ARC are turned off as I found the transients are produced a bit more crisply by the Gungnir than the AVM as judged by some Spanish guitar music.

    Speakers themselves on on 24" stands filled with metallic sandblaster beads (very heavy!). Wanted to avoid lead and hydrophilic sand in my wooden/walnut stands.

    Den is about 19x14x7 with a two story window along one wall.

    Placement is more a matter of acceptable imaging and convenience rather than precision. As mentioned in the technical reviews, since these are quasi-omnidirectional speakers the imaging is never going to be pinpoint.

    I generally use Mutter's The Club Album Live: from Lemon Lounge, Sharon Isbin, Melody Gardot for my evaluations, plus some Cars.

    Imaging/Soundstage

    I found the imaging of these speakers to kind of sneak up on me. At first impression, they image more like a live production where precise instrument placement doesn't really happen. As I listened longer, the image became more and more focused. I find the images to be larger than any of the other speakers I've listened to, borderline unnaturally so. Still pleasing, none of that 10feet tall violin stuff.

    I don't think I have a set up where the left/right width can extend out from the speakers (room treatments?). Given that limitation, the soundstage is wide. On the Mutter recording, one can hear Mutter playing from different parts of the stage. Sometimes she's to the left, other times at center. On the 2 violin pieces, the 2 main violins are clearly distinct from each other and the "background" musicians. The BMR do show a bit of depth where it's clear that Mutter is at the front of the stage and other instruments behind. The applause has a slight 3-d effect to it, a little cloud-like.

    Tone
    The sound of Mutter's violin matches what I've come to expect and different than Joshua Bell's violin. None of that screeching cat that many complain about. Piano soundboard comes through very nicely and reverberant.

    Listening to Return of the Jazz Communicators I can really hear the vibrato of the sax. Sounds like what I remember live sax sounding like, although it's been too long. I don't know if the BMR cannot reproduce it or if the recording doesn't have it, but the bite that some want to hear in the sax isn't all there.

    I can clearly hear the bass on that album, nicely plucked and not just sounding like a random 60Hz that some speakers try to pass off as a bass instrument.

    The different percussion techniques/instruments are clearly distinguishable.

    More on Bass
    As mentioned above, bass here is very present and musical. I didn't use a subwoofer and didn't really feel that I needed one. As a condo dweller, too much bass would get me in trouble.

    This is a 2 story condo, about 2000 sq ft. The speakers are in the upstairs den. At a normal listening level, I could hear the pulsing of the bass in the master bedroom, which is directly below the den.

    Handling of Complex Passages
    As I mentioned above, the Concerto For 2 Violins is a bit of a torture test I use. On some setups, one can hardly hear there are multiple instruments, let alone the 2 violins. The BMR does an excellent job of separating the 2 main violins from the background players and pianos.

    What I look for is the ability to hear into the passage and pick out individual orchestra sections or instruments. I can do this easily with the BMR.

    Transients
    The pluck of the violins and the guitar are quick and impactful, as they should be.

    Loudness
    Listening at relatively low levels is a delight on these. The music remains very articulate. I listen mostly at night so this is a great benefit.

    I was listening a bit loudly to one of my favorite symphonies, a tone poem named Pohjola's Daughter by Sibelius. The den here has a double door, about 6-7 feet wide, which leads into the 2 story foyer downstairs. My wife came up from the kitchen downstairs to tell me to turn it down! These can be played "loudly" under these circumstances. I haven't tried much louder than probably about 80dB. That's plenty here.

    Comparisons
    Most of the speakers I have access to do not do bass much, at all. The BMRs are great in having very musical and noticeable bass. Integrating a subwoofer given this quality of bass should be a breeze.

    I've not been a fan of British speakers when I've heard them.

    If anything the BMR sounds most like Totem Tribe II in terms of neutrality and yet more musical. The "omni" nature of the BMR is very room (condo!) filling while the Totem is less powerful. Long term, the BMR are much more listenable than the Kali LP6 - which sound a bit piercing in comparison.

    These are extraordinarily capable speakers.

    I haven't yet fully integrated these into my movie setup. With that caveat, I also haven't noticed anything odd during "movie nights," either.

    Picture from the other thread without grills.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2023

Share This Page