Can't decide between the JDS Element III Mk.2 Boostd, or a Modius + Jotunheim 2 Stack, for HD800s.

Hello everyone,

I have made use of several threads on SuperBestAudioFriends over the last few weeks to help me on my audio journey, but this is my first post here.

I recently purchased some HD800s. I currently do not have any amplifier for them, and am running them directly off a borrowed SDAC from Grace.

I've been trying to find a good DAC and amp stack for under $1200 CAD, and have narrowed it to two choices, based on many factors, which I won't get into here. At this point, though, I'm not really open to suggestions for different products, I've considered a lot already.

I'm considering either The JDS Element III Mk 2 Boosted, or a Modius + Jotunheim 2 stack from Schiit.

My priorities are, in order:

1. Reliability / Lifespan
2. Transparency, detail retrieval, and, ideally, large sound-staging.
3. Enough power to run the HD800s, with a -15 dB Preamp EQ, at peak levels of 115 dB.
4. Clean, simple, boxy aesthetics, in black

Both brands satisfy points 3 and 4. It's only points 1 and 2 that are really being questioned.

I will one day add a simple power amp to this, so I can run a 2.1 speaker setup with a powered Subwoofer. I'll probably add something like the Gjallarhorn amp.

The JDS is described as very neutral, but perfectly clean and adequate for all manner of headphones. The Schiit stack is described as warm, with sometimes brighter trebel, but with better detail and resolution and soundstaging than the JDS.

Can't decide on what's true and what's bullshit. Would love your thoughts.

 

hello,

WTF !

your first post should be here: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...-introduce-yourself.11639/page-19#post-429006

WTF !

there are resources here that answer your inquiry: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/best-amps-for-hd800s-2023-edition.13859/

(did you miss this thread?)

WTF !

i'm thinking that neither of your choices would do justice to the HD800's.

WTF !

did you spend much, much, much too much on transducers and now have no resources left to spend on driving them?

WTF !

i find your post disingenuous at best, and just maybe trolling for trolling's sake on face value.

WTF !

if you do indeed have a pair of HD800's, why did you not research their source requirements first?

i am not trying to be exclusionary, i just think this is high level trolling with no real effort to find an answer before going off.

mods: sorry for the rant.

 

I would take the Schiit stack simply because it is modular and gives you far more options to play with in the long run. You'll have upgrade possibilities, more ins/outs, balanced or not, blah blah.

 

I took a look at the various "best amps for HD800s" posts, going back to 2017. The majority are kilobuck amps or greater. Many are the price of a small car. Not at all relevant to my use-case. There are also many other factors leading into my decision, which I did not bother to expand on in my original post here because they are not relevant for the poll. Factors such as looks, size, solid state vs tubes, switchable preamp, etc.

Regardless, I still worked my way through the posts, googled many of the options there, and, with the help of countless forum members on multiple sites, whittled my way down to the two options posted here.

I allocated the majority of my money to the headphones, as one should, and now have 0.75x the cost of the headphones left for the source equipment. That is not just sufficient, but rather, excessive for most use-cases. I am not chasing summit-fi audio here.

No idea what about my post would be disingenuous. By definition of that word, you're accusing me of a form of lying... but.. lying about what? I haven't made any claims. Do you think I'm lying about... what I want? How does that even make sense?

This is not a troll post, this is a poll to see what the members of SBAF think about these two DAC/Amp options.

You keep talking about the HD800s like they require $15000 source equipment just to emit noise. They do not. They run just fine off equipment in my price range, and well below it. Thousands of people use them with little more than fancy dongle amps, and have a grand time doing so.

Your reply is elitist to the extreme. I have done approximately one full month worth of research, consuming hours of video reviews, leading approximately 10 threads across 3 different audio sites, and reading dozens and dozens of pages of test/analysis data on ASR, and reviews on multiple sites.

It comes down to these two choices.

A worth-while benefit, were it not for the fact that I have no intention of upgrading, ever, until and unless the equipment breaks. I am not a gearhead, and will not allocate more money to chasing greater audio fidelity beyond the roughly $3000 CAD I have set aside for this, so I'm trying to think very long-term with my choice. Thank you for your comment though!

 

If you feel that the HD800s sounds a bit thin, the Jot 2 stack makes more sense…it’s got better macrodynamics and provides a bit more emphasis there. If it’s just details, transparency you care about, then probably the element 3 is a better choice. Its ess implementation is pretty good and has strengths and emphasis in these areas. Best is for you to try both, return the one you don’t like.

 

BTW, @DrForBin is not wrong. There is a simple etiquette here to SBAF and newcomers are expected to respect introductory protocols before posting. That is why he is giving you a hard time.

It’s in the front page…


Good luck!

 

hello,

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/best-amps-for-hd800s-2023-edition.13859/

https://www.schiit.com/products/lyr USD$599

https://www.schiit.com/products/bifrost USD$799

total USD$1398

really, the protocol here is to introduce yourself FIRST, and then proceed to request advise.

ASR... not the best place to cite as an authority.

i do not own, or aspire to own HD800's. all of the iterations i have had the pleasure to hear just don't do it for me.

(however, the JAR800S is wonderful, and way beyond my pay grade.)

JDS Labs is beholden to NwAvGuy again, not the place to cite as an authority.

i own and use JDS Labs C5 and C5D for riding the bus. (the latter is MrsForBin's.)

disingenuous? if you have spent all this much time researching the amplifier requirements why would you end up with your unwavering stance on the two choices you present?

thus, the troll accusation. i am sorry if you spent too much on transducers and now do not have the means to drive them to their full potential.

indeed, transducers should come first. however, having the sources to drive them is a much trickier proposition.

ymmv

 

Really? A 5 page thread with a poll on ASR and you need us to tell you what to buy? GTFO.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ucts-but-they-dont-seem-to-review-well.53587/

 

Thank you for your recommendations.

I do prefer the HD800s with a bit of a U-shaped EQ curve to increase clarity on the high end, and bring out some subbase on the low end. By this logic, the Jot is the way to go.

Really, the only reason I'm hesitant on it is because in reviews that compare it against solid-state, transparency-focused offerings like products from Topping, SMSL, and SingXer, the jotunheim always gets described as having less detail, less clarity, and a smaller soundstage. Given that the JDs Element is the same type of transparency-focused amp, I'm imagining that it too will have better detail, clarity, and sound staging. And I figure if I'm going to use an EQ anyways, then what benefit does the jot really bring me?

But then there's concerns over the longevity of the JDS element, being digital rather than analogue, being made with a very flimsy potentiometer, etc.

Thank you for your suggestions, however, the lyr and bifrost combination come to $2157 CAD, landed. This is substantially more than the $800 or so for the schiit stack or the JDS element.

I've ended up with this (rather heavily wavering, actually) stance on these two amps because of a slew of factors that I've considered over the last month. Aesthetics, form factor, reliability, distance to service centers, power output, solid state VS tube, tonality, etc. There's been weeks of debate and consideration of many different products on other forums, which I left out in my poll because they're not relevant - I'm no longer considering those other options because they failed to meet my criteria.

We all know the HD800s are great headphones, and I agree that driving the HD800s to their "full potential" is something that you won't reach on $1200 of gear. It takes vast sums of money, for heavily dimishing returns. I'm okay with driving them "very close to full potential" for substantially less. One could argue that a Porsche can only really be driven "to its full potential" if you live within an hour of Nuremberg and can routinely take it there. But does that mean it should be illegal to buy a Porsche anywhere else in the world, because you're necessarily not going to drive it to its "full potential?" of course not. You gotta make do with what you have, and what I have is $3000 for headphones and source gear. I think allocating 1800 of that to the HD800s and the remaining 1200 to source gear is a damn good split.


--

As for skipping the introductory post, I apologize, but I did not think it to be truly necessary. In 15+ years of using dozens of online forums, i have never come across one that actually requires this. I find it weird, and truth be told, I have nothing to share about myself, with which to even form an introductory post.

Hi, I am a person, I own essentially no audio gear, and I listen to nearly all genres of music.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, that's truly all I can say about myself.

 

Be gone demon!!

 

Can you stop being autist for once @Quinton595? The long posts is screaming that you need external help my friend.

 

Have you built up your tastes from moving through mid level gear, or are you jumping hard into the deep end? Because frankly all our suggestions here are bupkis.

Are you opposed to buying used? The headfi classifieds or CAM are both great.

 

Nothing wrong with an ostensible touch of 'tism, as they say.

On a more serious note everyone else seems to have done a good enough job pointing out the faux pas, so as for actionable stuff: Jumping in right off the deep end when you haven't yet established what sort of sound you're going for is a bit silly. One could make the argument about how "objective metrics showing X and Y and Q being the most acoustically transparent components mean that they're the only thing to really go for!" might hold up, but.... no that's just a bit silly.

If you take one thing away from my message: @Quinton595, anyone who says that there's only ever one right way to go about putting a system together is trying to rip you off, be it via subjective boogaloo or cripplingly simplified measurements. Unfortunately, figuring stuff out for yourself is part of the process.


Now for the unsolicited and baseless advice:
I feel the HD800s might better suit you if you put a halfway decent tube system, but yeah that's not something anyone can say for sure without having an idea of what your preferences are. Never tried a Jotunheim of any sort but they're all rather known for having a more upfront headstage which i think defeats the purpose of having headphones that throw a wide stage out, no?

The Garage1217 Project Horizon may suit you well, LOVED the Project Sunrise (which is the same thing but optimised for lower impedance loads). The fact that you can tweak the sound profile a bit by playing with jumpers is great for learning and experimentation.

As for a DAC, maybe an original Modi Multibit, if you can track one down? Would have loved to try one out but the universe had other plans. The Modi MB2 definitely has a bit of treble sizzle that I can see sucking for bright headphones. Alternatively, the Modius you're already looking at ought be good, no personal experience with the ESS variant but I thought the AKM Modius (only ever tried SE out at a friend's place a few times) was very not-bad.

 

As a fellow Canuck, I am frankly appalled that the Bryston BHA-1 isn't under consideration. Black boxy aesthetic, lots of power, wide sound, and uber reliable (with an unmatched warranty) fits all his criteria. It just comes in a bit above budget but with some patience can be had on the used market.

 

Tangent, might be worth updating the "best amps for HD800" thread with the Magni Unity as an addendum? Never tried the Unity with an HD800 (could borrow but the one friend I have local to me that owns one is a massive fan of them), but I have tried the Piety with it and the treble is a bit much.

Actually rather curious to see how good a job the Unity does at making the HD800 (with some mods) less painful. Really was actually taken aback at how smooth the treble on it was compared to other Magnis without coming across as smeared.

 

So I used to own some cheapo $50 sennheisers some 15+ years ago. From there, my first actual pair of headphones were the HD6XX, which I owned and used for about 6 years now. From there, I was wanting to purchase just one final pair of headphones, my personal endgame, for the foreseeable future, never to be replaced until and unless they die.

I spent a long time, in all of the different audio shops I have in my city, listening to as many headphones as I could. The choices, for me, came down to the Hifiman Arya Organic, the Meze 109 Pro, and the HD800s.

The Arya Organic had much better base, the Meze had much better bass and treble, but the HD800s were more comfortable, more open, and are renowned for their soundstage width, even if I can't hear it. This, coupled with the fact that I could get the same kind of bass and treble character out of them with a simple EQ upper and lower shelf, meant that the HD800s were the best bet.

So, in terms of ownership, no, I've only ever owned one mid-level headphone. In terms of listening, though, I sampled a lot of different headphones, and could not find anything I liked, or felt was an improvement, for under the $1000 price point. So its like, half jumping into the deep end, but only after giving cheaper options the best shot that I could. I do not have the money to actually purchase a bunch of mid-tier products and give them longer trials.

I'm not opposed to used stuff when it comes to source gear, no. If I were to go that route, the best choice for the money would probably then be the RME Adi-2. However, because I'm shopping from Canada, I actually have to pay importations tax, even on used items, which puts a really sour note on everything. In some cases, its actually cheaper to buy new from the states, and make use of the $800 tax exemption for a 48-hour trip to the states, than to just buy used and have it shipped here. It's very annoying.

Per my response to Armaegis above, I did actually try to establish what sort of sound I was going for, by listening to as many different headphones as I could, for as many hours as I could, in literally all of the audio stores in my city (there's only 3, though, so that's not saying a lot).

The "best" sounding headphones, to my ears, were the Hifiman Arya Organics. They had all the detail and clarity of the HD800s, but with much stronger bass. However, I was able to sonically match the Organics by just applying some simple bass EQ parameters to the HD800s, at which point the decision is a no-brainer -- the HD800s are far more established in terms of build quality and reliability, are renowned for their sound staging, and are lighter and more comfortable than the Organics, while sounding just as good to my ears.

What's most important to me is high-end clarity. I actually have a slight EQ boost to the trebles starting at 4K, despite most people feeling that the HD800s are already too bright. I just like the clarity, what can I say.

It's this love for clarity and sparkle that concerns me in regards to the Jotunheim. I cannot use the Magni or other small-tier offerings from Schiit, as they lack a preamp switch, which is an essential requirement as I'm going to be using the amp as a preamp for a 2.1 speaker setup as well. This restricts me to medium-tier offerings such as the Jotunheim 2, and disqualifies the Midgard, which lacks preamp switching.

Thank you for your reply and recommendations. Unfortunately, I cannot use the Magni or other small-tier offerings from Schiit, as they lack a preamp switch, which is an essential requirement as I'm going to be using the amp as a preamp for a 2.1 speaker setup as well. This restricts me to medium-tier offerings such as the Jotunheim 2, and disqualifies the Midgard, which lacks preamp switching.

I agree with you completely. When I've watched actual reviews comparing these transparency-focused offerings directly against one another, they say the exact same thing, that there's differences between each one. However, as a whole, the three of them (Topping, SMSL, Singxer) are often held as very separate acoustically from non-transparency-focused offerings such as the Schiit Jotunheim, or an OTL Tube amp.

In one video in particular, the Jotunheim actually was compared directly against these other products:


And his opinion is what I've seen repeated elsewhere -- the Jotunheim is a great amp, but it's warmer, and has a smaller soundstage, and may have some issues with sparkle and sibilance, than the Chinese amps, or other transparent amps like the RME Adi-2.

Problem is, I havent found anything comparing the JDS Element against the Jotunheim.

Thank you for your recommendation. Unfortunately, that amp is not just a bit beyond budget, but WELL beyond it. I'm seeing prices of $2750 CAD or so, far in excess of the roughly $800 I'm discussing here. Used is obviously an option, but at that point I'd probably still go for the RME Adi-2 instead.


Don't know how my poll got another option randomly added to it...

 

Out of sheer morbid curiosity, I'd love to hear you both expand on what, exactly, you take issue with about me, genuinely.