Can't decide between the JDS Element III Mk.2 Boostd, or a Modius + Jotunheim 2 Stack, for HD800s.

I'm gonna try and sleep at a normal time for a change but before that just wanted to say that I fully cosign the "too much of a good thing" discussion currently ongoing, especially when you're still testing the waters insofar as finding a sound that works for you goes.

I've had the good fortune to borrow a modded HD800 for several weeks some years ago which was plenty of time for me to realise that while I really respect what it can do, it's not for me (the current JAR mods might remedy that, though). I'd not call it transparent so much as it is bright as all hell with just a bit of lower-midrange warmth to take *some* of the edge off that. Not super fast in terms of transients relative to what I had at the time (Klipsch HP-3), but still fast enough that I could jive to them with a (more warmly-voiced) livelier upstream.

Take this with a grain of salt cuz I'm amazingly biased, but I've heard some of the commonly-recommended "transparent" amps and they've all just sounded bright as hell and shrill to me. Not something I imagine is going to flatter the HD800 for anyone who isn't suffering from advanced presbycusis. Even something opined to be reasonably flat but with a mild emphasis in the low end like the FiiO BTR7 (which I've been using a lot more lately since I do leave my house on occasion, shockingly enough) comes off as hashy in the treble to me, not necessarily in terms of treble levels but treble *character*.

I am definitely not going to say that I'm treble sensitive cuz that's emphatically not the case, but it's worth testing your tolerance thresholds there as that's the sort of thing to REALLY bother a person with extended music listening sessions, even at modest volumes. That's one of the reasons I suggested that a Project Horizon may be a better fit, especially if this is going to be a fully blind purchase; it ought take some of that brightness off and temper the Senns.

 

@Quinton595 no one here or anywhere can give you the one true answer. Only you can.

If you really want that answer and limit your risk, buy your intended (or whatever is available) option used on Canuck Audio Mart from a reputable seller. This will limit your risk and if you don’t like the combo, resell it for little or no loss and try something else.

Only by trying will you find the answer. Everyone else’s opinion is just that, an opinion. They are not you. They do not have your ears or brain or sense of taste. Only you can decide on the right system. And to do that, you must stop reading and get listening.

 

Dude, you were given a heads up the moment you got here. The links to newcomers on the front page explain it all. It's like visiting someone's house and you see signs on the lawn saying "don't walk on the lawn" use the pathway, but you trample right on the lawn anyways. People may not have felt the need to do a simple introduction, even if they don't have much to say.... but it remains a requirement, all in the spirit of having people respect the given rules to this forum, and what this site is trying to accomplish with its etiquette, and more succinct decorum.

I'm actually surprised you haven't been banned yet at this point. However, many people here still want to steer you in a better direction, and in fact many seasoned members have given you spectacular advice, I suggest you heed them.

Also, it looks like you've spun your wheels enough and are over-researching and overthinking at this point. We've come to the point of the game show where you have to choose.

Based solely on what you were deliberating on, the Element is a no brainer in my opinion. It's definitely the more neutral amp of the two if you are just going for transparency. The magni unity option is actually a much much better for this in that regard and probably a much better option price wise as well. The used market would give you better bang for your buck especially with higher end devices like RME-ADI2 and possibly better options.

Others here are screaming for other choices because many of us have been through the HD800 saga far too many times and through countless numbers of amps and gear to try to obtain great sound with it. With "warmer" amps and tube amps, its not as if some of these parings will simply f*** with the HD800 signature in a bad way with its "coloration". It's the synergy it can bring, where it retains the core of what the HD800 represents without A) the usual harshness or glares in the treble, and B) giving it good fullness and body in the right amounts. But this is an experience thing and a IYKYK thing.

@rlow is correct. @Quinton595 you gotta take the plunge, and you have more than enough info to make a decision. hopefully it will result in the conclusion you are looking for.

 

This place is a weird old smelly boys club, with near mandatory hazing for newcomers. Pointing out the treatment results in more hazing.

Anyhow, people are throwing random suggestions out and I feel like one of the phonitor variants deserves to be seen since now you can also adjust your staging to your tastes. You can even buy a brand new Phon One D under budget in Canada.

 

Thank you for your comment, and for sharing your experiences with the HD800

Yeah, the used market is definitely a way to hedge bets and reduce risk, but the Canadian used market is so small... there's just nothing here. I've been monitoring it for about a month now, there hasn't been one Jotunheim unit for sale. In fact, there's a "wanted" ad up for one that's been up since January. Same with the JDS Element, there's just no listings.

So I would have to be buying from the US market, which means I'm paying 13% tax on it. Not the end of the world to most people here, but I'm fairly financially limited (hence the $800CAD target in my poll)

Thank you very much for actually addressing the subject head-on, without attitude or sarcasm. I appreciate it. In all honesty, I still don't understand, personally, why the introduction post is so important to the members of this forum, but it's clear to me that it is important to people here, regardless of whether or not I understand why. It's an exception to 15+ years of forum-browsing experiences for me, but hey, firsts can happen whenever.


The reason I can't come to a decision is that, to me, based on my selection criteria, both the JDS Element and the Schiit Modius + Jotunheim stack are equally good products. I know members here will disagree on the tonal differences and which unit harmonizes best with the HD800s, but I don't think I have ears capable of hearing these subtleties. I wasn't even able to hear many of the supposedly night-and-day differences between the HD800s and other headphones when testing them in-store. So, to me, for my purposes, these products are equal contenders. And BECAUSE there's no glaring issue with one or the other, and because they're both valid choices, it makes descision-making impossible for me. How do you decide when both options work? It comes down to whim, and minutia, and that's why I'm fretting so many details and trying to get so many opinions from so many different sources.

I can tell though that I have overstayed my welcome, so thank you again to everyone who has provided feedback.

 

Usually when people get advice on gear, it's given mostly based on what they're hoping it will sound like. Yeah, there's the follow-the-rules aspect, but a lot of the frustration people have here is that... I mean, your first post here actually doesn't say much of anything about how you're hoping your HD800s sound (you might think it does, but it really doesn't). Sometimes people get an idea of that from the intro post, but they can't do that if there isn't one.

So it's just about impossible to give you any useful advice from that perspective. And then you narrowed it down to two options on some basis or other, both of which are not what people here would be inclined to recommend for those headphones given what they can guess you MIGHT like. So it's just difficult to have a productive discussion from that starting point.

Like Slade said, you'll just have to try something, and hopefully you like what you try enough to keep it. If not, hopefully you can get an idea, from listening, of what you actually would like. It can take listening to a few different things to really start to get it, though.

 

Yeah, unfortunately all of this is just another reason that it's difficult to actually know without trying things (ideally at home, in the environment you plan to use them). If something REALLY doesn't work for you, it's usually obvious within a week or two of listening. And the more you do it, the more you start to get a sense of the differences, and how much those differences matter for you. You build up a mental notebook of references over time.

If you really don't think you can ever tell the difference, it doesn't much matter what you buy (and you should buy something cheap. You could get away with spending much less than an Element, or a Modius/Jot stack). And that wouldn't be the worst thing, a lot of people would tell you that if you can avoid becoming an audiophile you should.

 

To bad you have already bought the HD800. I personally cannot stand the 800. I much prefer the HD6xx you own or even the HD58x. The HD6xx with something like a Monoprice Liquid Spark $129 max and the MMB2 $299 is an outstanding combination and very inexpensive.

 

Yeah, I tried to leave all the backstory and goals out of my original post because I thought this would just be a simple poll. I see now that you all would much rather that I explain what I'm looking for and my budget and so on, and work up from there. I'm just too burnt-out to go through that whole journey again, as it's exactly what I've been doing this past month on other forums, talking with people about what kind of sound i like, what features i need, the aesthetics I want, the budget, the serviceability, etc. It's taken me a long time to get down to even two options.

What's interesting to me is that you specifically seemed to really like the Jot 2 when you first got it, based on the reviews you left here back around 2021. Especially when running off the balanced output. I figured that would make you just cast a vote for it in the poll and be done -- but I get that you're trying to provide a customized recommendation for my use-case specifically, based on particulars that I left out of my original post, so I understand the frustration.

Yeah, that mental notebook of references thing is absolutely true, it took me a while to even start noticing the differences between models of headphones, as many of them were not a night-and-day difference, until I started to sensitize myself to exactly what I should be listening for, and what certain auditory phenomena like "openness" actually feels like.

Still, even with ownership of the HD800s, they're not a night-and-day difference to any other pair of headphones I've listened to. An incremental improvement, to be sure, but not something transformative. I am still happy with my purchase, though, due to their far greater clarity over the HD6XX, their openness, the comfort, and so on.

However, I know that headphones make up the vast majority of the output sound, and if I wasn't able to hear major differences in headphones, I strongly doubt I'll be able to hear what most people agree to be the much smaller differences between models of DAC's and amps.

The breakdown I've usually gotten from people on different forums is that headphones make up 85% of the equation, with source gear being the next 10%, and music files being the last 5%.

If I wasn't even able to hear major differences in the 85% group, I doubt I'll be able to hear a 10% difference of the 10% group. Fractions of a fraction.

This is why I consider the JDS Element and the Jotunheim stack to be roughly equivalent, even if you all here might consider that statement heretical. Similar power output, both made in the USA, both known for good customer service, both considered completely adequate products, etc. The only difference I can suss out is that the jot is warmer but perhaps less detailed, while the Element is cleaner but perhaps more boring. The other differences, such as Balanced output on the Jot, or digital volume control on the Element, are minutia, and likely will not make or break my experience with either

So, I made this poll to see if there was some overarching major public sentiment towards the two brands, due to some factor that I missed. It seems I haven't missed anything, but the community here just disagrees with the premise that these two options are worth considering in the first place. That's valid, but I'm just too burnt out to start over, and consider all-new products again.

I found the HD6XX to be extremely veiled, like the music was coming from another room. The HD800s IS a night-and-day improvement in at least that one regard.


One last thing I should mention, to perhaps explain why I'm so resistant to suggestions for upgrading or starting small or such, is that I am not an audiophile or a gearhead (I think that's been made self-evident). I do not plan to EVER purchase another amp or DAC, until and unless whatever I purchase breaks. I am not chasing different audio signatures for different days or different genres of music.

As such, the search for audio gear is an exhausting and thoroughly-unenjoyable one, for me. The sheer number of factors to consider, the sheer number of options out there, the sheer amount of dissenting and contradictory opinions expressed online about every single product.... its a LOT. I've already considered dozens of products, and I've listened to a few, and I'm truly exhausted and not having a good time with the selection process at all. This is why I'm not receptive to considering new products at this point.

This is also partly why I've overlooked the smaller tiers of entry-level products, even if they're very good, such as the Modi/Magni. Do they have 20 years of staying power? Can they run a -15dB EQ Preset for certain reasons? Can they work with visually with a power amp stack for a 2.1 speaker system one day? My analysis was no. Maybe I'm wrong with that, but that's the conclusion I came to. The Jotunheim has the power necessary, and stacks neatly with a Gjallarhorn. The Element has the power necessary, and stacks fine with a lot of brands of power amp.

I just want a good, clean sound, free of dramatic coloring or dramatic distortion. At the same time, though, it's been made clear to me across many forums that overly analytical sound is not preferable to most people, as it sounds boring, and flat. My difficulty lies in figuring out where exactly the Jot 2 and the element fall on that spectrum. The Jot 2 is warm-ER than the Element, yes, but is it objectively warm overall? The element is clearer and MORE analytical than the Jot 2, yes, but is it objectively flat and boring? Hard for me to tell.

Is it this?

[Warm as Mud] ---[Jot 2] --------------------------|--------------------------[ Element ] ---- [Cold as Ice]

Or is it this?

[Warm as Mud] -----------------------------[Jot 2] --|--[ Element ] --------------------------- [Cold as Ice]

 

You should just go back and read @purr1n 's posts.. not just bc he's the SBAF overlord, but because he specifically addressed the points of your priorities. Also because 1) you basically said that you probably won't be able to hear the difference between amps/DACs, and 2) a Magni will save you money. Or just buy whatever you think looks coolest & has the coolest features bc again, you said you probably won't be able to hear the difference between amps/DACs anyway. And, that's okay. People buy things for dumber reasons.

If you haven't figured it out by now: there is no consensus.

 

You seem to be really talking yourself into the Jot, and out of anything else except perhaps the Element.

Dunno where you are in Canada, but if you reeeeeally want one, here's a black Jot 2 in Squamish:

https://vancouver.craigslist.org/van/ele/d/squamish-schiit-jotunheim-headphone-amp/7741312614.html

The same seller also has a black Bifrost 2, but he wants $1000 for it which IMO is a bit steep. Maybe he'd give a discount for both units. Or, you could get Schiit's 9028 DAC card (same as the one in the Modius) to put into the Jot for $US100 plus shipping.

Craigslist, so I'd be leery about dealing other than face to face (and Squamish, so preferably armed ).

Edit: I see you said you use EQ to give the 800s some U-shape to 'increase clarity on the high end'. Forgive me for asking, but how old are you (not trying to be ageist, I'm 60 myself) and have you seen an audiologist recently? More high end is not what most users of the 800 say they'd want to adjust for.

 

This thread is wild

 

Yeah. I don't fare well with lack of consensus. When decision-making comes down to whim, or "features" or things that don't actually matter much, I struggle to make a choice. Much easier when there's a clear winner.

And oh, trust me, I've been reading and re-reading this thread and many others on SBAF all day long as replies have been coming in.

No no, it's a valid question, because you're absolutely right, everyone wants less high-end from the HD800s, not more.

I was playing around in PeaceEQ, and took myself through their hearing test, on my HD6XX's. I understand that it's not a valid stand-in for a true medical test, but i still find the results interesting.



https://imgur.com/a/47LqksO

Let me know what you think.

Boosting the treble on the HD800s definitely makes them more fatiguing, but for shorter periods of listening, it all sounds much much sharper and clearer.

Then again, this is probably because I don't currently have a setup that can properly drive the HD800s. It's entirely possible that when I buy an amp -- ANY amp, this EQ boost will go away.

 

Its like having an amazing meal, all the words in the world might not do justice to actually having the experience. You can read restaurant reviews all day and still have no idea.

 

Maybe an HD700 might be a better fit than HD800?

 

You have an HD800S. Get the following and be done with it:

1) Schiit Modius ($230US)
2) Schiit Vali 3 ($150US)
3) GE JAN 5670W tube ($20US)

I know you don’t want to hear it but this combination will yield better results than any of your system choices in the poll.
How do I know how this specific system will sound?:



The 5670 tube specified above has a life expectancy of between 10000 and 100000 hrs depending on ambient operating temperature and operational usage.

The Vali 3 can produce sufficient power to provide over 120 dBSPL to the HD800S.

This topic did not warrant a separate thread and you have been admonished by several members for lowering the S/N ratio for which this forum is known. You’ve received considerable personalized consultation which could have been received in one of the All Purpose Advice threads.

For other consideration, the Cyan 2, Vali 3, HD800-JAR is a spectacular recreational listening system.

 

I have been thinking and thinking about all of the comments I've received on this thread, and I have been re-reading them, and other threads on this forum, all day today. I've gotten no actual work done, and am extremely burnt-out, but it's the least I can do, given the time you've all spent answering me.

I would like to try asking one last question to the community, if anyone has the patience to answer it, either as a comment, or as a vote in the poll. If this is the comment that gets me banned, well, I'm not surprised, and I thank you all again for your help.

--

At the end of the day, even after all of my multiple days of testing at multiple stores, I lack the first-hand experience to actually KNOW exactly what kind of sound I want, as I haven't listened to every type of system out there for the extended periods you all have. I THINK I want a certain type of U-shaped sound, as I find myself boosting both the >4 kHz range and the <160 Hz - range on my HD800s by around 5+ dB, but again, I could be wrong.

So, if I were to throw out the descriptions I provided earlier of what type of sound I think I want, I'd like to ask you all:

If YOU had a gun to YOUR head, and HAD to choose between only these two options, would YOU PERSONALLY choose the JDS Element III Mk 2 Boosted, or the Jotunheim 2 + Modius FOR YOURSELVES?

You all have more experience than me, and so I value what decision you'd make for yourselves. Please understand that even after asking this question, I am earnestly considering your other suggestions as well. Modi, Magni, Vali, RME, other brands, everything that's been recommended here. I'm doing my best to look into them all, but I'd still appreciate it if anyone is willing to answer my question directly, as I've asked it here.

Edit: AtomicBob, your post came in while I was typing this. I am looking into the Vali 3 as you recommend, as others have recommended it as well, thank you.