Distortion Surface: old measurement, new approach

Discussion in 'Audio Science' started by atomicbob, Sep 4, 2023.

  1. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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  2. purr1n

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    BBC weighting would be good for a single number or graph that rules them all. However, my personal preference is seeing distinct D2 and D3, and if needed D4+ (for most transducers, D4 and higher calms down, but for those edge case instances where it does not calm down, show it). In other words, THD of 95% of transducers tends to be highly dominated by D2 and D3.
     
  3. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I know it would be a lot more number crunching. I'd just be curious to see how much it changes the shape of the THD surface plots as you give more weight to D3 and D4 as they currently appear mostly dominated by the shape of D2.
     
  4. purr1n

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    The number crunching actually isn't that hard at all. Using the BBC method (but taking into account only D2 and D3 with D3 being penalized with x 9/4 multiplier)

    Pinnacle P1
    upload_2023-11-14_19-17-46.png

    Ara
    upload_2023-11-14_19-19-33.png

    I think the results above are obvious, but after experimenting with this (with older graphs), I'm not convinced a single graph that measures THD(BBC) tells a good enough story. Second and third harmonic distortion sound very different (and even thenm, has a different effect in the lows to highs). I feel that D2 and D3 are best presented separately rather than "combobulated". I'm also not convinced penalizing the third harmonic more than the second is justified. It's different for sure, but not convinced that it's always worse.

    Here are some distortion patterns typically seen, relating to personal preference.
    upload_2023-11-14_19-33-20.png
     
  5. Biodegraded

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    Just so I'm clear (perhaps being slow on the uptake): are you talking transducers as well as sources/amps with this sketch? ISTR you've said this previously wrt the latter, but not the former (but wrt transducers, ISTR discussions about preferences for D2-dominated over D3-dominated bass).
     
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  6. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    I remember the D2 injector that @dBel84 put on tour a while back. Impressions seemed rather all over the place but it did seem to track with personal preferences and associated gear.

    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...on-pass-diy-h2-injector-for-loaner-tour.8660/

    FWIW I think that D2 is fine in lower end, but excesses of D3 end up making for muffled and less defined lower octave textures. Peeping the Grado graphs they do generally seem to have a fair bit of D3 in bass but more D2 through the mids which *could* take some edge off the peakier voicing? Unsure, would have to have a headphone that's all the same sans distortion profile, but while the overall immediacy + PRaT (hah) was very much there, most Grados I've tried including the PS500e just ended up sounding a bit undefined in the midrange relative to the Senn HD600 which tracks with D2 "softening" things.

    My mental impressions of the vintage RS1 are a wash, I lacked real context for sound at the time. Fond memories though, they had the Grado sound but didn't trigger tinnitus attacks like the SR60(?)e did.
     
  7. purr1n

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    With the patterns, talking about all gear - although dynamic including isodynamic drivers do tend to fall within the first triode-like pattern, unless the design is really screwy / cheap.
     
  8. purr1n

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    Playing around a bit more. This is basically the 3D version of what I was doing before with the distortion charts. This is distortion in absolute db terms instead of % of the fundamental.

    JAR600
    Second Harmonic (db)
    absolute vs Frequency vs Output Level (db @ 500-1kHz AVG)
    upload_2023-11-15_21-3-53.png

    JAR600
    Third Harmonic (db) absolute
    vs Frequency vs Output Level (db @ 500-1kHz AVG)
    upload_2023-11-15_21-4-16.png

    In many ways, I feel this is more intuitive for ordinary people to understand compared to THD%. For example there's no "rise" in % as we move to lower output levels where we run into dynamic range limits, which can kind of throw people off. As we increase output levels, distortion rises along with it. It also gives us a better D2 to D3 perspective. There is still some noise at the lower output levels where distortion is low, especially in the lows.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 15, 2023
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Same visualization technique as above but with RS2X

    RS2X F-Pads
    Second Harmonic (db)
    absolute vs Frequency vs Output Level (db @ 500-1kHz AVG)
    upload_2023-11-15_21-14-9.png

    RS2X F-Pads
    Third Harmonic (db) absolute
    vs Frequency vs Output Level (db @ 500-1kHz AVG)
    upload_2023-11-15_21-14-59.png
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2023
  10. purr1n

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    CFA Ara IEM. This is a BA type IEM which I consider one of the cleanest and clearest sounding around. It uses 7 drivers. BA or balanced armature types will have third harmonic that tends to group together tightly regardless of output for this visualization. The second harmonic barely moves, probably because so many drivers are sharing the load. The third harmonic starts out highish from the lower output levels but tends to stay stable, that is rise only slowly.

    @Biodegraded

    D2 absolute
    upload_2023-11-15_21-25-2.png

    D3 absolute
    upload_2023-11-15_21-24-40.png
     
  11. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    These do look nice. Is it possible to show the ~100 dB fundamental curve along the back wall as well? That'd make it easier to judge how distortions at different frequencies of a particular headphone relate to SPL at those frequencies, as well as to compare different headphones to each other.
     
  12. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    This is such a tremendous expansion of information about the performance of these electroacoustic transducers. Put these and CSD together as a set allowing listeners to triangulate between measurements, subjective evaluations and personal preference.
     
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  13. purr1n

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    Indeed, however I don't think this software will do that. I'd have to write that custom.
     
  14. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    Given the tremendous advancements in measurements and visualizations I would propose the following for a headphone measurement suite:
    1. D2 distortion surface
    2. D3 distortion surface
    3. D4 distortion surface (would be nice D4 through D10)
    4. CSD
    5. L-R Frequency Response, to see matching between drivers, RAW not compensated
    6. Impedance sweep
    7. CSV file for L-R FR to allow anyone to apply compensation of their choice
    8. Optional - L-R FR with compensation, with compensation curve clearly identified

    All measurements should be uncompensated to allow absolute comparison between measurement suites and not have to work backward from any particular compensation.
     
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  15. purr1n

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    I'm going to see if I can swing a 5128B head.

    I like what @Resolve has proposed and I plan on following his lead:
    https://forum.headphones.com/t/developing-a-new-headphone-reference-target/20094/34?u=purr1n

    The gist is that dummy heads or head/ear rigs will come with DF comps. Thus headphone FR plots should have DF comp applied. What this allows is comparable results between GRAS (whatever 45 variant), B&K 5128, or whatever GRAS will come out next to compete with B&K, China clones, etc.

    The resultant DF comp can then be measured against various targets. For example, the 1db/oct slope (typical FR at listening position at mix stages or speakers flat at 3M, placed in a living room with furniture). Variants of this could be B&K AES1970 which is fairly flat to 200Hz with then 1db/oct slope. Other targets could be Audeze house sound. And of course Harmon 2013 target (who Resolve translated to DF comp). Heck, I could even provide a translation of the flat plate coupler to DF too.

    Point is cross comparability. Sure there will be variations, but it won't be like Crin taking raw from whatever he's currently using to Crin target, Amir using raw from his specific GRAS targeting to whatever Harmon year, Oratory comping to Harmon target, whatever RTings is doing, probably Harmon 2013, etc. It's basically all over the place and no one can compare anything.

    All plots compesated to DF. Then then targets are easy. I could draw a dark line on the B&K in my FR plots because that's the studio neutral reference which I prefer. But I can also draw lighter lines for Audeze house sound, Crin target, Harmon 2013, Harmon 2017, Harmon 2018, Harmon 2023, Harmon 3022. Then basically everyone can decide for themselves what target they would like to use for themselves,

    P.S. People are dumb and a few are already up in arms over "Resolve's Target". OMG, the gaul of going against Dr. Sean Olive P.h.D. and his peer reviewed (it's not) research, when it's not even anything like that at all!
     
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    Last edited: Nov 16, 2023
  16. purr1n

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    Yay, figured out some stuff on the AP.

    SW51
    300-ohm load
    90kHz bandwidth
    low-Z output
    Distortion in dBu (absolute)

    H2
    upload_2023-11-16_22-22-47.png

    H3
    upload_2023-11-16_22-25-58.png

    H4-10
    upload_2023-11-16_22-31-16.png
     
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    Last edited: Nov 16, 2023
  17. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Just a random thought, wouldn't it make more sense to have the Y axis go to 0dBu since that's generally where lots of modern pancake-compressed music peaks? Would be easier to "see" how far down this all actually happens. I'm currently trying to be less of a vampire, fix my sleep schedule, so my brain isn't all here at the moment, but I had a proper WTH moment before I noticed that the scale topped off at -40dBu.

    Of course, this would make it harder to be any sort of granular about comparing the shapes. Eh, could very easily just point people who don't notice the legend in the right direction and ask them how low their listening room noise floors actually are.

    Curious how D3 performance in the upper bass has a shallow divot, implying D3 improves at around -12dBu output level. There's probably some sort of amplifier magic that explains that that I'm too ignorant to really get, but that and the ~1kHz D2 ridge are interesting; wonder how these correlate with aspects of the amp's sound.

    Requesting surface for the Piety, if that's not too much trouble?
     
  18. purr1n

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    0dBu distortion at the 0dBu output level means 100% distortion. :p

    Likely function of transformers that just prefer certain areas to operate in, "sweet spots". The increased distortion at the ends at higher output levels is typical for transformers. @Zampotech jammed these in using special techniques.

    Sure. I may try one more thing first: try THD% instead of dBu for distortion. It's a bit easier for amps to do this compared to headphones.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2023
  19. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Haha, I was a bit distracted when I wrote the above so ended up rambling, but I basically meant it might be easier to have the scale on Y-axis go up to 0dBu to be able to better contextualise how low distortion actually is in terms of absolute SPL relative to where most people are actually listening to music.

    What do you mean there's an element of artisanship to building amps? (sarcasm). Yeah I remain really ignorant here but it's fun tracking how this all works out with respect to what we hear.
     
  20. artur9

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    How important is the "roughness" of the surface?

    I know when measuring with REW the common wisdom is to ignore very narrow peaks/valleys. Something like less than 5-10Hz wide.
     

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